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Post by dovehunter on Jul 16, 2009 7:42:58 GMT -5
I got to my club range yesterday morning about 20 minutes before legal shooting time and figured I'd scrounge around for brass. I picked up almost two boxes of obviously once-fired .45 ACP, most of which were headstamped "BLAZER". They appeared to be regular brass casings like everything else I picked up. However, I seem to recall years ago "BLAZER" ammo being non-reloadable and coming with aluminum (or some other non-brass metal) cases. Question # 1: Are these new (appear to be brass) "BLAZER" cases reloadable? I also picked up a few other of what I thought were .45 ACP cases, and were obviously .45 caliber, but, when I compared them to .45 ACP cases, they were a little shorter. I looked at them more closely, at least to the extent that I could without benefit of my reading glasses, and they appeared to be headstamped .45 (I think) GAP. Question # 2: What is this oddball short .45 pistol case and what is it used in?  |
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Post by Jack on Jul 16, 2009 8:00:27 GMT -5
The 45 GAP cases are shorter than 45 ACP's. The 45 GAP is a round that I believe Glock inspired, to be able to chamber a 45 in pistol that's a bit too short to handle 45 ACP's.
The 45 GAP cases would likely chamber in a 45 ACP, but they wouldn't headspace correctly, as both cases headspace on the case mouth. The GAP, in an ACP chamber might fire, or the firing pin might just push the case deeper into the chamber and not fire. Anyway, I would advise not using GAP cases in a 45 ACP firearm.
The Blazer cases I've seen were aluminum, and quite obviously aluminum in color and lighter than normal weight- those cases are not reloadable.
Don't know about Blazer cases that are brass, I haven't run across any.
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Post by klsm54 on Jul 16, 2009 19:16:24 GMT -5
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Post by dovehunter on Jul 16, 2009 21:09:08 GMT -5
The 45 GAP cases are shorter than 45 ACP's. The 45 GAP is a round that I believe Glock inspired, to be able to chamber a 45 in pistol that's a bit too short to handle 45 ACP's. The 45 GAP cases would likely chamber in a 45 ACP, but they wouldn't headspace correctly, as both cases headspace on the case mouth. The GAP, in an ACP chamber might fire, or the firing pin might just push the case deeper into the chamber and not fire. Anyway, I would advise not using GAP cases in a 45 ACP firearm... Hey, give me a little credit here for having good sense. I picked them up thinking they were .45 ACP. As soon as I recognized they were shorter than .45 ACP cases I tossed them.  Why in the heck would anyone want a .45 caliber pistol round with a case shorter than a .45 ACP? Has someone re-invented the wheel here? This sounds like a prime candidate for the "solution looking for a problem" award! I certainly hope that factory ammunition is clearly marked in large, bold letters that it cannot be used in firearms chambered for the .45 ACP. Seriously though the "GAP" cases look to be only about maybe 1/8" (probably less) shorter than an "ACP" cases. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference (without reading the headstamp) between the two unless you held both cases in your hand for comparison. Again I have to ask the question does the world really need the .45 GAP round? |
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Post by jmarriott on Jul 16, 2009 21:29:35 GMT -5
The 45 GAP cases are shorter than 45 ACP's. The 45 GAP is a round that I believe Glock inspired, to be able to chamber a 45 in pistol that's a bit too short to handle 45 ACP's. The 45 GAP cases would likely chamber in a 45 ACP, but they wouldn't headspace correctly, as both cases headspace on the case mouth. The GAP, in an ACP chamber might fire, or the firing pin might just push the case deeper into the chamber and not fire. Anyway, I would advise not using GAP cases in a 45 ACP firearm... Why in the heck would anyone want a .45 caliber pistol round with a case shorter than a .45 ACP? Has someone re-invented the wheel here? This sounds like a prime candidate for the "solution looking for a problem" award! I certainly hope that factory ammunition is clearly marked in large, bold letters that it cannot be used in firearms chambered for the .45 ACP. |
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Jul 16, 2009 21:51:50 GMT -5
Looks as if grip size was the key to it's existance. I guess if even 1 in 10 law enforcement officers shoot a 45gap, there's plenty of demand for ammo. Bottom line, I guess Glock decided to do it before Colt, Kimber, or Smith did. They want to continue to own the law enforcement market. www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/new_45/ |
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Post by klsm54 on Jul 16, 2009 22:11:14 GMT -5
I think it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If the 45 ACP grip size is too big, go to a 40 S&W. I like the 45 ACP, a lot, but the 40 S&W is no slouch in the self defense world. I'll refrain from commenting on the 9mm. ....  ;D |
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Jul 16, 2009 22:51:35 GMT -5
If you honestly prefer the ballistics/performance of a 45acp to a 40sw, then why not go with a 45gap if it fits your hand better??? I think it makes sense for a police officer who can go to his range and get 3 boxes of ammo at will. It probably doesn't make sense for a civilian who is a casual shooter. They're going to have a hard time finding ammo at lower prices and any centerfire handgun (9mm would be just fine) will do for self defence b/c in reality they're never ever going to use it anyway |
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Post by Jack on Jul 16, 2009 23:13:57 GMT -5
Actually, from a gun maker/designer's point of view, the 45 GAP is a solution to a problem that does exist. Here it is: the gun makers are trying to figure out ways to increase sales. They have the Glock 9mm platform (the 9 is what the Glock was originally designed for). They sell lots of Glocks, but they also lose a lot of sales, because the Glock wasn't made in major calibers (45) then. So, what do you do? Retool for a slightly larger pistol at a cost of many millions and a lot of time?
Or, do you make a 45 cartridge a tad smaller, so it fits in your designed for a 9 gun? And you can market a Glock 45 next week, if the ammo makers get on board.
Which solution do you think the stockholders will like, if you were the Glock CEO?
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Post by dovehunter on Jul 17, 2009 10:21:11 GMT -5
Actually, from a gun maker/designer's point of view, the 45 GAP is a solution to a problem that does exist. Here it is: the gun makers are trying to figure out ways to increase sales. They have the Glock 9mm platform (the 9 is what the Glock was originally designed for). They sell lots of Glocks, but they also lose a lot of sales, because the Glock wasn't made in major calibers (45) then. So, what do you do? Retool for a slightly larger pistol at a cost of many millions and a lot of time? Or, do you make a 45 cartridge a tad smaller, so it fits in your designed for a 9 gun? And you can market a Glock 45 next week, if the ammo makers get on board. Which solution do you think the stockholders will like, if you were the Glock CEO? Jack: You raise a very good point. The .45 GAP case does appear to be about the length of a 9mm Luger round. Presumably the "GAP" would use a lighter bullet to more closely emulate the ballistics of the "ACP" round. I would think though that you would be starting to get into the realm of what a gunsmith buddy of mine used to say that you would be "shooting a washer". Presumably, by this, he meant a bullet that was nearly as wide as it is long. Though I enjoy shooting my 9mm I'll be the first to agree that, as a man-stopper (or anything else for that matter), it falls woefully short. I saw on one of the Military Channel things that the British SAS, who use the 9mm, are taught to always shoot an opponent twice to make sure of a kill. I have heard U.S. troops, under certain conditions, are finding the 9mm does not do the job. Around here the local police forces seem to be about equally divided on the calibers they use. In Henrico County, VA, where I live, the cops use a Sig-Sauer in .45 ACP. The city of Richmond, as I believe, use the Beretta M-92 in 9 mm. I believe Chesterfield County, the county across the creek, uses the 40 S&W. I hate to admit my ignorance, but I am not sure what our Va. state police use, although I am pretty sure it something bigger than the 9mm. For my own part, if I am going to use a autoloader as a home defense gun, I'll stick with my M1911 in .45 ACP thank you! |
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Post by Jack on Jul 17, 2009 11:11:13 GMT -5
Dovehunter, I just took a really quick look at ammo makers. Speer seems to be the one making 45 GAP ammo. Their loads use 185's and 200's (or at least that's what I saw) at ballistics similar to 45 ACP factory specs. No 230's. Just guessing- maybe 230's take up too much room in the shorter GAP case to leave room for sufficient powder.
Seems to be a mix of cartridges used by police dept's around here, too. Some 9's, some 40, and some 45. All autoloaders- haven't seen a LEO carrying an issue revolver in quite a while.
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Post by jimiowa on Jul 17, 2009 15:15:23 GMT -5
I'd have to do some research, but as I recall it was a Government Agency(FBI or secret service?) that wanted a little less recoil and over penetration in a easier to conceal handgun that prompted the 45 Gap design. Performance wise it's close to the ACP.
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Post by jmarriott on Jul 17, 2009 16:15:35 GMT -5
I have the glock 45 ACP and the grip is not to big for my small hands.
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Post by klsm54 on Jul 17, 2009 17:03:05 GMT -5
I guess that since, even in my rabid handgun buying days, I never even considered owning a Glock, the 45 ACP is not a problem to me.
And, I don't suffer from small hand syndrome. If I did, the 40 S&W would be my choice over the 45 GAP.
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Post by dovehunter on Jul 19, 2009 7:35:49 GMT -5
I am thinking maybe Jack had the answer of producing a large caliber round that would permit using existing smaller frame sizes to avoid extensive re-tooling as opposed to allowing a smaller handgrip. I don't have particularly large hands either but have never had any problem getting mine around the grips of any autoloader other than as I recall a Desert Eagle (or something similar) designed to use the long .357 mag. revolver round. That thing was (at least to me) an aberration anyway.
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;D