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Post by dovehunter on Jun 18, 2009 11:34:23 GMT -5
As you guys are probably all too well aware by now, I am looking for a good powder to use for my new .223 Rem. After experiencing problems with IMR-3031 I asked you guys for your opinions. Based on your responses H-335 seemed to come up as a good pick. Bill highly endorsed it as well as a couple others. Hodgdon's latest manual said it was originally developed expressly for use in the 5.56 mm military variant. Well, after that, I thought I was all set. I had also posted this question on another board, specifically mentioning H-335, to get some other opinions. I won't mention names to go along with the tales, but I got the following response for the Administrator of the other board: "H335 is a standard powder for the 223, but I don't use it for two reasons. I have "blown" only two cartridges in my entire 50+ years of reloading, and one of them was a below-maximum load of H335 in a 223. The gun was hot, and the first round from a fresh batch of reloads locked the bolt and blew debris out of the action. Had to beat the bolt open, then had to beat the fired case out of the bolt. Primer was completely gone, and there was now a BELT swaged into the brass. That takes an enormous amount of pressure, folks - likely over 80,000 psi. I also discovered that H335 leaves an almost ceramic-hard fouling deep in the rifling grooves. You can NOT see it without a borescope, but it is in there. I got it all out, finally, and no other powder I tried left anything like it - except H-335. Two strikes is all it took for me. No more H335 in use around here." That sort of burst my bubble and definitely got my attention. What do you guys think about these comments? Have any of you ever experienced such problems with H-335? Bill, I know you are loading extensively now for the .223. Are you currently using H-335? If not, what do you use? Sorry to be such a pain.
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Post by Jack on Jun 18, 2009 12:07:35 GMT -5
I've not experienced those problems, but I haven't used tons of H335, either. I know who made those comments, and in my experience, he knows what he's talking about when it comes to reloading. There are a bunch of good powders available, as previously mentioned, so finding another shouldn't be hard, unless you have a stockpile of H335.
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Post by klsm54 on Jun 18, 2009 18:03:45 GMT -5
I have never experienced any problems with H-335, or any powder for that matter.
As far as the fouling, I was never what one would consider a "High Volume" shooter. My rifles usually saw a couple hundred rounds in load development, then not much more than 50-100 rounds a year. So I probably scrubbed the bores of my rifles often enough that I would never notice that one powder fouled worse than another. I have noticed that some "ball" powders seem to leave a little more soot, or carbon fouling, than most extruded powder, but I never found it hard to get out. Those who shoot 200 rounds in an afternoon on a regular basis probably notice those things more than I would.
As far as the high pressure load, I can think of many reasons for that to happen, and some might involve the powder. But I really think it had to be a fluke, no matter what the cause. If H335, or any powder for that matter, caused extreme spikes in pressure like that on even a semi frequent basis I doubt they would be on the market in this day and age.
I'm like Jack, I haven't burned a ton of H335. But I have burned probably 4 or 5 pounds, maybe a little more, over the years without any signs of trouble. I've used it in several calibers....222, 223, 22-250, 257 Roberts, and 308 over decades of reloading, so maybe not a ton, but still it was always a pretty common powder on my bench.
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Post by dovehunter on Jun 18, 2009 20:31:11 GMT -5
...There are a bunch of good powders available, as previously mentioned, so finding another shouldn't be hard, unless you have a stockpile of H335. I haven't bought anything new as of yet. I was (and still am) trying to find out what is the best and/or consensus preference to avoid having to buy a shopping cart full of powders and shoot out my barrel in the process.
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Post by klsm54 on Jun 18, 2009 23:03:31 GMT -5
W748 is another one that I believe was formulated for the 223. I found it good with some bullets.
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Post by jmarriott on Jun 19, 2009 0:08:53 GMT -5
Sorry I am not expert in reload in any manner but is not varget the one everybody is buying and hoarding for the .223. I know it can be used in the 223 i just figured that everyone was buying it up in the last 6 months because of oboma.
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Post by jimiowa on Jun 19, 2009 7:51:14 GMT -5
like the others I have not used a lot of H335. But like Scott said there are so many things that can effect Pressure. Like Jamming the bullet hard into the lands for instance. So not disputing the word of the reporter, all I can think is there are thousands who have never had a problem with it in the .223.
I found on my Hornet in the NEF, it had a long throat. Which made it difficult to jam the bullet, especially the 40 & 45 grn bullets. The OAL was pushing anything in the manuals. So I backed off and jump the gap, so to speak.
Honestly, I don't think there is a BEST powder for any cartridge. Every rifle is an individual and one has to find what works best in that rifle.
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Post by Bill on Jun 19, 2009 8:36:24 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300] "H335 is a standard powder for the 223, but I don't use it for two reasons. I have "blown" only two cartridges in my entire 50+ years of reloading, and one of them was a below-maximum load of H335 in a 223. The gun was hot, and the first round from a fresh batch of reloads locked the bolt and blew debris out of the action. Had to beat the bolt open, then had to beat the fired case out of the bolt. Primer was completely gone, and there was now a BELT swaged into the brass. That takes an enormous amount of pressure, folks - likely over 80,000 psi.
I also discovered that H335 leaves an almost ceramic-hard fouling deep in the rifling grooves. You can NOT see it without a borescope, but it is in there. I got it all out, finally, and no other powder I tried left anything like it - except H-335. [/glow] In the last 3 years I have probably gone through an 8lb keg of H335 powder. My loads are not light loads and are near max and I have never experienced anything close to a primer blown or craters for that matter. Not one single problem. There are a number of things that can cause blown cases like he is talking about. One is secondary detonation by using too light of a load. That is as bad as a gun that is way overloaded. The other is using a case that has been reloaded way too many times and it just comes apart due to the case having stretched in the web too much and just plain is too weak to be reloaded in the first place. Both of these are operator error in my opinion. I have seen one gun that was blown this way and it just plain destroyed it. Guy returned it and said that the ammo was at falt and wanted his money back. The rest of the ammo he produced and claimed to be bad like the one that blew ended up being checked by Winchester and they said all of them were reloads. The guy blew his buddy's gun up on the same day and blamed the ammo on it too. Winchester said "Go Fish" By the way, I could tell the shells had been reloaded by the mark's on the cases and the mismatched case stampings. Another thing that can possibly do this is to come up with a max load that works great in 20-30 degree weather and then use that same load on a 100 degree day. That can really shoot the pressures through the roof. But if you set up your load in normal 75-80 degree temps like I did I have not seen a problem. Now as to the almost ceramic like coating. The BS flag just went up. I have never experienced this kind of problem. Even if I left the gun set for a few weeks before cleaning it. H335 has been the go to powder for a long time and too many people use it without any problems to not have had this problem reported by them. If it had I really doubt that it would be the go to powder any more. As to Varget, its the go to powder for .308's and its the powder I cannot get my hands on right now either.
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Post by jmarriott on Jun 19, 2009 9:04:21 GMT -5
Thats exactly why I said varget and benchmark. The fact that I don't reload is also why I most likely remeber powders with names. HXXX just does not have the ring that a named powder does to those of use who don't know diddley.
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Post by klsm54 on Jun 19, 2009 14:04:23 GMT -5
I'm a traditionalist, I like my powder to have numbers attached to them. But if you are still scared of H335, you may want to look at Ramshot powder, made by Western. Their TAC powder seems to be the sweetheart of the fast twist 223 crowd with heavy bullets. I think their X-Terminator powder might be more suited to 50-60 grain bullets in the 12" and 14" twist tubes. That being said, I'm still recommending H335. I did some searching on the internet, where bad news spreads like a prairie fire, and can find no other fouling complaints about H335. Based on that, along with personal experience and what I've read here, I cannot put much credence in that story. And as I said earlier, the pressure spike story sounds fishy, I don't care who is telling the story. Even amongst the most experienced reloaders, there are still some very strong negative opinions, and tightly closed minds. Yeah, honest there are.... ;D I have no idea who it was that had the supposed bad experiences with H335, but I'd bet he fits into that group. I'm like that to an extent. There are products I won't use, for varied reasons. And some of those reasons hold water only in my mind. But I'll seldom openly criticize a product that is time proven, and extremely popular, just because.....say the factory rep pissed me off, which is exactly the case with an extremely popular bore cleaner. I could be way off base, but if I'm not it sure wouldn't be the first time a well respected internet "expert" bad mouthed a product that didn't deserve such treatment.... JMHO
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Post by Bill on Jun 20, 2009 8:27:12 GMT -5
Are you meaning such internet experts no certain guns like Red is to Ruger Scott ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by dovehunter on Jun 20, 2009 13:11:13 GMT -5
I am kind of inclined toward Scott's way of thinking - if there had been a real chronic problem with H-335 Hodgdon would either have corrected it or taken it off the market.
I think what I am going to do is see what powders are available when I go to the gun shop(s). Right now I would guess availability more than anything else may govern what I end up getting. If I can get it, I will probably go ahead and get H-335. If I can't get that, and either are available, I'll probably go with Benchmark or Varget.
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Post by klsm54 on Jun 20, 2009 13:54:59 GMT -5
Are you meaning such internet experts no certain guns like Red is to Ruger Scott ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I do have to admit, that very thought entered my mind.... ;D ;D
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Post by dovehunter on Jun 23, 2009 11:03:52 GMT -5
...As to Varget, its the go to powder for .308's and its the powder I cannot get my hands on right now either. I thought about you when I went to my favorite gunshop today. They had tons of Varget powder. I saw at least dozen or more cans on the shelf. They did however also have a good supply of H-335, so I went ahead and bought a 1-lb can.
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Post by Bill on Jun 24, 2009 6:59:06 GMT -5
You won't regret the powder choice DH. Enjoy it.
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