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Post by klsm54 on Sept 13, 2006 22:09:17 GMT -5
Red, in your "Pig Scenario", if the 270 had say a 130 grain Ballistic Tip or Power Point, and the 300 Mag had a premium, maybe a Barnes X Bullet in 180 or 200 grains, I'll take the pig on the left.
The "Big Boom" killing better with the bad shot doesn't always hold water. Take a whitetail deer through the green with a 180 grain 30 caliber bullet and I'll bet that the same shot from a 22-250 or 220 Swift will yield a dead deer in a much shorter distance.
There is no substitute for good shooting.
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Post by jimiowa on Sept 13, 2006 22:24:11 GMT -5
[quote I haven't had enough "mentally documented" experience with chest hits to say whether or not the velocity alone is a factor on chest hits that don't produce a quick kill. I have had problems every year with chest hit squirrels but can't remember the bullet selection. As you said, I wonder which produces more shock to small game  A. a high velocity (higher energy out of the barrel) solid bullet that passes quickly through B. A low velocity (lower energy from the start) solid bullet that will lose even more velocity once it hits the target (as a percentage) I've shot subsonic ammo before but I don't think I've hunted with them before. I often overlook them because of the few selections --- and as you said they do stray a little more in the wind. This is not a problem in the woods as the wind is minimal or nonexistant - but it is more of a problem at the range.[/quote] Thats an interesting question and I have my theories. I have seen the standard velocity ammo to be very effective. My Theory is that it expends more energy w/o excessive pemetration. Donnie mentioned using shorts, a 29 grain bullet at low velocity is very effective on small game within it's range. I know that most of the butcher shops in this part of the country used .22 shorts and brain shots to drop hogs and cattle. I have asked and was told it was effective and there was little danger of exit. |
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Post by sebastian on Sept 14, 2006 4:38:25 GMT -5
Red, I think Scott hits on the nail on this subject. "There is NO substitute for good shooting".
Frankly I cannot explain, by exact basis, why low speed .22lr ammos is better for small animals. (in my experience & particularly for body/chest shot). I suspect because the bullet didn't pass so fast or made excessive penetration on the game, like Jimiowa mentions above. However, when a bullet isn't pass through medium/big size's game, all of the energy of the bullet is taken by the body of the game. (=tend "to kill by schock", not by wound/exit wound....similar thing on small animals, although most bullets will pass/penetrate easily...problem is how fast, i guess). Imagine a man is being shot (just for instance) with a rifle and a handgun, which one do you think more felt/pain?. I guess(?) the low velocity one, the handgun. He perhaps wouldn't even feel hurt if being shot by a rifle...
I also used to use .22 lr on games, although not so much/often. I have some brands/types of .22lr ammos, and found that the low/standard speed is more better for small animals like birds, squirrels, porcupines etc. (no wild rabbit in my area). I also found that shooting rats with a low velocity airgun is better than to use high speed. (my compressed airgun can be adjusted for the power/speed with ease). With high speed setting, the rat usually still run if shot on the chest, with low speed the rats usually dead instantly/on place). This happen to medium-large size's rat. The small ones were killed instanly whether it is high or low speed, chest or head. (Well yes, I cannot always make head shot for small animals except for short range).
On the scenario you give (about two pigs together at the same place)...I would say that I would pick two of them with the .270, particularly if it is a tree stand/still hunt, and/or the terrain is a bit open. (not just pick one). It will be long to explain why I'm "so confident" with this...but the main reason is because I can make head shot easily off hand up to 100meters (or a bit more) for pigs & deers.
I have killed hundreds pigs so far and more than 3/4 were head shot. (most of them done by using FMJ ammos). This is also why I have a belief that I can use FMJ bullet on ANY games. I don't feel I have a need to use a premium bullet or so, in most circumtances, to be honest. I still can make head shot up to 250-300 meters if I shoot with sitting position (which is my best position for shooting). Premium bullets just damaged meat much, in my experience, and I didn't like it. (I don't eat pig's meat but I just don't like to bother the local guides with much of bloods, more dirty work etc).
I ever shot 4 pigs out of 7, once.(7 pigs in a heard). The other 6 pigs (smaller) run everywhere after the first bang (on the biggest one), and I had to shoot so quick to shoot the others....That's not easy to do...perhaps that was a "record" over here for a hunt and perhaps because I was just lucky. (one pig still run because I couldn't shoot it properly...hit it on its butt since I had no choice/time anymore). I also have several national records for target shooting in Indonesia, whether it is for benchrest shooting, or target/positions shooting, or "running boar/mouse" events. My thophies, medals, prizes, & "shooting brevets?" proof this. As I ever said before in this forum (long time ago), to have a shooting licence in Indonesia, we must pass lots of exams, including to shoot 6" targets at 100meters in 3 positions (standing, kneeling/sitting, and prone) and must hit 12 out of the 15 targets....5 targets for each positions. No sling, no vest etc. You will know why if you can consistanly get 128-137 total scores when the 10 ring is 2". So I do understand the differences between shooting at the range and hunting in the fields. I even more better for hunting, honestly. I don't know why, but shooting a game off hand right on its head is always more easier for me compared to shooting target at the range...maybe because there are many peoples in competitions and because of the open range. Maybe because it becomes "a nature?" for me (??).
I think long timer members/mods in this forum already knew this.
(My statement may seem "arrogant", i can feel it, but all above are true!)
My suggestion is, give the low speed a try, and find yourself if it is true or not....seb.
Another thing is, try to wait for a while when you're sure that you've made a good placement on a game, say you hit it right on its chest, but the game still run afer the shot. The last energy of the game will make the game move far away from you if you chase/track the game with hurry. Let the game dead by itselves, then track. If you have good skill on tracking a shot/wounded game, it wouldn't be hard to track even it is in brushy area. Lots of local "guides" over here can track a shot game even at a dark night, just using a small flashlight. Well, I cannot do that I believe... ;D That's why I like head shot as long as still possible to do.
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Sept 14, 2006 22:53:58 GMT -5
Ok, I'm done using these solids  I was off work today and put some treestands up and went squirrel hunting. I shot a squirrel square in the head at about 30 yards and he of course didn't move. I continued on and found another squirrel 15-20 yards. I thought "Wow, what a great time to put a slug right behind the shoulder" He was stretched out and I fired. He hung onto the limb with one arm and I'm thinking "He's going down, he's going down, he's... RUNNING AWAY. The thing takes off running through the treetops and I'm in hot pursuit. He finally runs to the ground and stops. Instead of giving a week distress whine, he gives a loud chatter and continues running. I was running and couldn't keep up. Finally, I lost him.  At that distance and that reaction, I know I put it in the chest. |
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Post by sebastian on Sept 15, 2006 0:15:58 GMT -5
Red, if your rifle shoots just about 1"-2" at 50 yards, how do you know that you hit the center of the squirrel's body (chest/shoulder) *Note: I ask this not because I don't believe that you have hit the squirrel or so, but any chance that you just hit it NOT in the center of its body?? (how to ask this properly in english???)...i mean it is different between a shot "right on the chest" with a shot "not right on the chest" (such as not really on "the center"). You shoot a small animal, also. Did you see the hit/bullet hole with your scope? Or just by bare eyes?...I guess that I cannot see bullet hole on squirrel at about 20 yds by bare eyes? Question: I have seen pics about US's squirrels before. But I wonder about the size now. How big/small is US's squirrel, actually? Our local mature squirrel is about 1 1/4" wide on the body and about 6" long from the head to the butt, btw (the body is not big as they look since they have thick hairs). How about US's squirrel??? smaller? bigger? Strange/confusing me, because I can kill our local squirrel instantly just with airgun. |
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Sept 16, 2006 14:19:01 GMT -5
These particular rounds are Federal Pemier Gold Metal Target They shoot 5 shot groups between .5-.75 in the middle of the bull on a cold barrel. This is a 40gr solid/boattail sierria matchking going 1080fps at the muzzle. It's very hard to estimate the size of a squirrel. Our baby squirrels when they venture out are at least the size of your mature squirrels. Grey squirrels probably get about 9-10 (minus tail). Fox squirrels are often confused with small cats A mature one would get over 12in easy. Here are a couple pics from some random website. It gives you something to compare These grey squirrels are fully grown. Although the fox squirrel is hidden a bit, you can see it is much larger. The fox squirrel actually looks bigger than average.  Here are two fox squirrels. They are of normal size.  |
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Post by sebastian on Sept 16, 2006 15:22:20 GMT -5
Holy crap! Those fox squirrels are much bigger than our local squirrel! I imagine we have that kind of squirrels over here!!!!!!
Thanks for the pics.
I hope I can shoot some, someday.
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Post by Bill on Sept 17, 2006 6:40:46 GMT -5
Actually Sebastian, those Fox squirrel are about average in size. You find some that have lived on the corn piles and they can be a bit bigger. Their some awsome eating though. ;D ;D ;D ;D Dang that picture of the fox squirrels is making me hungry for a batch of squirrels to eat.  |
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Post by jimh on Sept 17, 2006 7:38:11 GMT -5
Red, i think i have the problem of why your chest shot squirrels are able to run off on ya. hope this helps.  |
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Post by jimiowa on Sept 17, 2006 9:08:51 GMT -5
Seb: The Fox Squirrel is pretty much an open country squirrel.
Found along creek bottoms where farmers, farm right up to the edge of the creek or on hillsides too steep to farm with machines along fields and primarily feed on farmers grain.
The Grey's are more of a deep timber/ forest squirrel and feed on nuts and things more common to the forest.
Their ranges only slightly overlap on the edges of deep forest.
Where I'm located is agricultural and Fox Squirrel are about all we have. Starting about 30 miles south there are more hevily timbered ridges and one can find Grey Squirrel though it is often a mixed bag.
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Post by Jack on Sept 17, 2006 9:15:00 GMT -5
Red, I had the same experience with solids, and even with the flat tip solids, the CCI SGB, or a home made version. In some cases I eventually chased down the squirrel to confirm a good chest hit, and in a few others I saw it thru the scope. Enough so your experience with the squirrel getting away doesn't surprise me much.
I switched to Winchester Power Points (hp's)- end of problem- you hit 'em, they drop.
All grey squirrels, in my case.
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Sept 17, 2006 10:31:13 GMT -5
I am going to bass pro in a little while with Jimh. I'm thinking I'm going to buy CCI minimags and try to get them to group. I'm sure they'll be out of powerpoints. Stingers shot supprisingly well last time I shot them (only had about 10) but I think that may be a fluke  Like I told Jimh a few minutes ago - unless you get a fox squirrel, I'm not too concerned with saving the front arms. If they get torn up, that's alright. I throw away quite a few freezerburnt squirrels every year so it's not like I have a shortage of them. |
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Post by jimh on Sept 17, 2006 13:13:31 GMT -5
well i met Red a little while ago for the first time and gave him his ammo he paid for last month and threw in a box of cryptonite for the squirrels while i was at it. he must not be feeling very well as he was polite, well mannered and a decent all around guy. hope you start feeling better soon Red. oh we both found some nice looking pellet rifles that may be in the future one day.
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Sept 17, 2006 18:25:06 GMT -5
Yeah, caught me recouping from friday night still.   I was on my best behavior saturday. Went to work for 4 hours, came home, didn't leave bed for 20 hours except to pee. The pellet guns were pretty nice. They were towards the bottom price range as far as singlecock guns go, but anyone of those 4 would of been good for a beginner. What I can't understand is why they need so much excess wood on the stock. Perhaps they were trying for free floating or the size of the action, but they could of went with a slimmer design for smaller adults and kids. But I suppose kids tend to get the 10pump rifles which are slimmer in design. |
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Post by sebastian on Sept 18, 2006 3:55:47 GMT -5
The fox squirrels shown in the photo above should be 3 times bigger (read: heavier) than our squirrels. (i'm jealous guys!).
Red, I hope I can visit you someday and shoot some of these squirrels!.
Any paperwork etc needed (for non allien like me) to shoot this animal, for my info??...From what I can see(?), why it seems so hard/complicated to shoot animals/hunt in the US??? (JUST for varmint, for instance)....
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