|
Post by jimh on Jan 24, 2006 19:09:17 GMT -5
if my body lets me this weekend i'm gonna get out and post a couple of 50 yd targets. i'll try a few diff. ammo's and see how they shoot. i've yet to try mini mags in it and every ruger shooter tells me they shoot well in most m77/22's. i'll try to get my buddy's marlin too and do a side by side at 50 yds.
|
|
|
Post by jimiowa on Jan 24, 2006 22:41:30 GMT -5
Red: You bring some interesting arguments to the table. This is not my first try at creating a fine Squirrel Rifle from a sows ear. You all might remember a couple yrs ago I got an old Mossburg 140K(still have it). I was actually looking for a Remington 582, to build this sporter on. I redid the bedding, floated the barrel, when that did not work, installed a pressure pad, did the trigger work(in this case the ball point pen spring was no disaster). Then I took it to the bench, and heres where I`ll kind of prove your point on ammo. And yes this was done at 25yds. I tried Remington Thunderbolt. Federal lightning, Winchester T22, CCI green tag, PMC Scoremaster, Ely Club, and RWS Blackbox. The RWS cost $10 a box and guess what! I shot a 5 shot group, took the center daimond out of an ace of diamonds. By measuring outside to outside and subtracting the diameter of the bullet it went .193. Even in a 50 year old junker the $10 a box ammo makes a difference! But let me say that your right for minute of squirrel at 25 yds some $3-$6 ammo will do fine if it shoots well in your particular barrel. Now back to the comparison to the high dollar action/barrel/ trigger combinations. This same rifle with same ammo will run around a 1" group when you push it to 50 yds. I`m convinced most factory rifles and barrels are going to fall apart performace wise at 50 yds and beyond. Scott layed out the differences between the two Anschutz actions, and illustrated clearly that when the money(or chickens) are on the table. The so called high dollar equipment is not only required, but cheap. Whats that old saying?" There are Horses for Courses".
Jim, your right it`s not about strength, The locking lugs on the 54 assure that the bolt locks solid behind the case head. There is going to be no canting of the bolt due to ignition pressure that may cause variations in launching the bullet. The 54 has a better trigger, and holds its resale value much better. 54 is clearly better, but the 64 is no slouch. In fact, I think it takes one hell of a shooter, to be able to tell the difference. Not sure I would ever be that good? ;D
By the way Jim, I forgot to comment on how nice your rifle is! Sorry it took so long to do so!
|
|
|
Post by klsm54 on Jan 24, 2006 23:09:23 GMT -5
From what I can discern, the Model 64 Sporter, which of course now carries the 1400 and 1500 Model designation, sells for somewhere in the $600.00 to $800.00 range. There are too many models and grades to nail down an exact price... .....likewise with the Model 54, which now carries the 1700 series model designation and will set you back from about $1100.00 up to about $18oo.oo for a Meister Grade. So for comparison purposes, I would say there is about a $500.00 difference, an average of about $700.00 to about $1200.00 When you look at the difference, the Model 64 may well be the best choice if money enters into the equation. I guess it depends on how much you want to pay for a little more accuracy.... Whew... ....I bought my Model 54 back when Savage and Anschutz had just parted ways, I believe it was 1981. I paid....are you sitting down....$375.00 for it. And, with the grade of wood in the stock, it would probably be a $1400 - $1500.00 model today. Geesh! Wish I had bought 3 or 4 more and kept them unfired... ;D
|
|
|
Post by Bill on Jan 24, 2006 23:28:27 GMT -5
The reason I picked the 64 model was because of the price point you gave Jim. I have seen 64's come in and bought cheaper than most of the 54's. Now granted the 54 is a better shooting rifle, BUT, is it all that much better that it warrents the extra cost. That was my only reason for choosing the 64 over the 54 was price point alone.
|
|
bounce
Royal Member
Posts: 5,727
|
Post by bounce on Jan 25, 2006 2:10:27 GMT -5
Anyone for Chinnee"s? A $100 project that will out shoot a 54....... now thats a plan
|
|
|
Post by calsibley on Jan 25, 2006 7:29:29 GMT -5
I can't speak in terms of rimfires, but what Red says has merit regarding centerfires. My 2 most accurate rifles both have Hart SS heavy barrels and very good scopes. They both can shoot in the .2"s (5 at 100yds). One is a rather expensive Remington 40XBBR action, the other a run of the mill Savage 110, but I wouldn't draw the conclusion that the Savage is the Remingtons equal. True that with bench quality barrels, top notch scopes glass bedding, barrel floating and trigger work they can be close, but then again we're no longer talking factory rifles at that point. I agree with Scott though. All things considered, you'll play merry olde hell beating that Anschutz he mentions. True one case is a centerfire, the other a rimfire, but I suspect the principal is the same. Just one guys opinion. Best wishes.
Cal - Montreal
|
|
|
Post by klsm54 on Jan 25, 2006 10:23:25 GMT -5
The reason I picked the 64 model was because of the price point you gave Jim. I have seen 64's come in and bought cheaper than most of the 54's. Now granted the 54 is a better shooting rifle, BUT, is it all that much better that it warrents the extra cost. That was my only reason for choosing the 64 over the 54 was price point alone. I sort of figger'd that was your reasoning Bill, but I thought maybe you had some "insider" information... ;D I tend to agree, that for most applications, the 64 will suffice, and is a far better value. When you look at the 54, you need to look at a Cooper also. And as much as I love my 54, a Cooper is still the stuff that dreams are made of....
|
|
|
Post by jimiowa on Jan 25, 2006 20:11:09 GMT -5
Anyone for Chinnee"s? A $100 project that will out shoot a 54....... now thats a plan Yes that would be a plan Bounce! And while they are fine rifles it might be a stretch. Back when They were shooting BR50 at Knoxville. Rimfire Benchrest Target Shooting was in its infancy here in Iowa. And I saw all kinds of Home Brew Rifles at the matches. If you spend any time on the Rimfire Board at Benchrest Central you may recognise a few Names. And some of these homely rifles shot quite well. There was a guy from down by Montrose, Lon Morgan, who shot a Marlin with a 1.250 full diameter Douglass. barrel, he shot it well, till he bought an Anshutz. Kurt Westfall was coming up from Montrose as well, He runs the matches down there yet.I don't remember what he was shooting then. Brian Voelker was coming down from Central City(well known rimfire target Smith) and runs the matches at North Linn Gun Club. He was shooting a Remington 580 that he completely rebuilt. Gordy Gritter(Gunsmith) ran the matches and shot a rifle he had put together on a time action. Probably best known as technical consultant for Varmint Hunter Magazine, and runs their Jamboree matches in Pierre, every year. But my point is there was a guy from Story City, that had a Norinco, that he had put a full diameter Shilen Barrel on. He said he started with the full length blank and cut off an inch till it shot it tightest groups at 17". He had made his own trigger group for it and it really shot well. So yes the Chinese rifle can be made to shoot.
|
|
|
Post by jimiowa on Jan 25, 2006 20:23:17 GMT -5
The reason I picked the 64 model was because of the price point you gave Jim. I have seen 64's come in and bought cheaper than most of the 54's. Now granted the 54 is a better shooting rifle, BUT, is it all that much better that it warrents the extra cost. That was my only reason for choosing the 64 over the 54 was price point alone. Thats a good point Bill. The is there that much difference for the money or do I have the abilities to take advantage of the difference is the great unknown? And the more I look the more I`'m beginning to realize. I notice The NEW CZ prices are going up while USED 64`s are staying the same. There is little more than $100-200 between them right now. And if I had to bet, the 64 would shoot rings around the CZ. Even for the Stocking practice project(plan 1) a used sporter 64 is looking far more attractive. Back to one of your other posts, The 64 MPR is nice and a great value! However The Sanctioning Groups hold the Sporter Class to repeaters with 6X scopes and weight limit all up of 7.5 lbs. The 64 MPR has a lot of wood and a heavy barrel that exceeds the weight limit. I have been kicking myself for over 10 years for not having the money for that nice 64 Sihloette for $300 ,I had a chance to buy at one of the Knoxville shoots.
|
|
|
Post by jimh on Jan 25, 2006 21:39:25 GMT -5
how about those h&r cm12 ? but that is a heavy rifle, i forgot what weight you where trying to stay in. not to mention you have your heart set on an anschutz, a man should have a couple of dream toys in his life. Hey i had a good day with deliveries today. got home this morning from the physical therapist and on my porch was a box with the stock i bought on ebay on mon. man thats fast delivery. and today when i got home from work a package with a second magazine for my m77/22 that i bought from a guy on rimfire for 11.00. even though my leg is still killing me life is good today. well good because i finaly just got home and took some meds and maybe might be sipping on a vodka martini. cheers!
|
|
|
Post by jimiowa on Jan 25, 2006 22:18:43 GMT -5
When you look at the 54, you need to look at a Cooper also. And as much as I love my 54, a Cooper is still the stuff that dreams are made of.... Your Right Scott! I would give the accuracy edge to the Anschutz(just barely) but Cooper seems to find the prettiest Walnut available. Of Course that is for a Semi-Custom production rifle. There may be a Dozen or so Custom Stockers in the country that would top them. But the wood and fitting would exceed the total cost of a Cooper.
|
|
|
Post by Purebred Redneck on Jan 25, 2006 23:05:57 GMT -5
and maybe might be sipping on a vodka martini. cheers! Yeah, lose the gin and olive. Sub vodka and cherry.
|
|
|
Post by Bill on Jan 26, 2006 9:54:53 GMT -5
Jim, how do the Kimber's stack up against the Anschutz 54's?? Thats just another one to throw into the works Might as well muddy the waters as much as we can right?? I'll do some looking around and see what I can find in used prices for a 64 and a 54. Never know whats out there and I might be able to find something reasonable. Coopers just don't seem to be reasonable no matter what a person does But with the weight limit you are looking at, just about any sporter model in that weight bracket might just work.
|
|
|
Post by jimiowa on Jan 26, 2006 21:59:46 GMT -5
Bill, I really don`t know how the Kimber stacks up? Have heard and read some good things about them. But can't say I have ever seen one let alone shot one. There are some good actions that can be made to work. The Sako P94 is probably neck & neck with the Anschutz for use in Sporter Class, right behind the full blown custom actions like Hall, Turbo and ULA. The reason Sako is so popular is somewhat like the 10/22 it is modular and can be self modified. Jewel once made a trigger for the Sako but quit. However Kurt Westfall(also in top 50 sporter shooters in the country) of Montrose, Ia, makes a hanger to adapt a Remington, Jewel Trigger. The Barrel is clamped in the action with a pinch bolt. Lilja makes a pre-chambered drop in barrel and one can change it himself and set headspace with a fired case. I know a guy who is ranked in the top 20 in the nation, that is using a Kimber. Of Course it is full race with a Benchmark Barrel and I don`t know what he did for a trigger. So yes I suspect it would do ok, just not sure what needs to be done to it to be competetive. Dang theres a lot of stuff to think about!
|
|
|
Post by Purebred Redneck on Jan 26, 2006 22:35:20 GMT -5
Bill, I really don`t know how the Kimber stacks up? Have heard and read some good things about them. But can't say I have ever seen one let alone shot one. This isn't what Jim is saying. I'm saying it. I've read a lot of forums on rimfire central and such. If indeed everyone gets the groups they claim they get with the anschutz and CZ, I think everyone in the world would spring for one. Bottom line, when I see people claiming they can shoot .5" at 50 all day long...I start questioning the people's claims... What is in reality a .75" group out of 10 groups all of a sudden turns in a .50" group that they kept all day long. get the picture... Now that's not to take away from people and guns that can do this on a regular basis. Because I believe you guys. But when stupid people just shoot their mouths off (especially recommending people to buy that gun), it doesn't sit well with me.
|
|