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Post by jimh on Jan 24, 2006 10:27:40 GMT -5
hey guys enlight the rest of us knuckleheads. when it comes to rim fire how strong does the action really need to be. would the 54 be that much better than the 64? i would think after a point the barrel would be the more critical factoe especialy in rimfire. but this is why i ask, because i don't have a clue.(and it will make for some educating dialog)
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Jan 24, 2006 12:12:07 GMT -5
I'm going to stick my neck out on the chopping block and you guys can whack away at it. Everyone talks about these 54s, 64s, 452s, old winchesters, etc and how they shoot these .2-.4 groups at 50 yards. These guns are not cheap so what makes you think the shooters/owners of these guns are going to use anything less than highgrade target ammo??? They aren't going to use federal bulk, winchester dynapoint, remington thunderbolt. They aren't even going to use low grade premier rounds like powerpoint. Sure when you use a gun that is properly bedded, have a 1/2 pound trigger, a 20x scope, and shoot ammo that costs 10cents a pop (or more) you are going to get wonderful groups at 50 yards. It's not the fact that certain brands are instinctivly better. It's not even the fact that they are made out of better materials. It's just that the owners of them are more serouis than owners of marlin, savage, etc. Take JimH. I personally think the 77/22 is the second biggest piece of monkey crap next to the 10/22 !!! And if I remember right, jim wasn't too happy with the grouping of the 77. So he changed some things and he's got it shooting good. (edit) It may shoot decent to good groups but for the price tag of a 77, I'd want better. out of curouisity, what was the average groups on the 77stock at 50 yards? I forget but it was probably somewhere between .75-1.25 I'm not sure, that's just a guess... But yeah, you've done some things to the gun and it's shooting great. And I will say you have one hell of a gun now. If I could afford to do so, I'd love to have one just like it. and I'm serouis. The 10/22??? the gun all other semi-autos are judged by??? take a look at this 25 yard group That's a pretty good group for a 10/22 isn't it? That's not a 10/22, that's my marlin 60. And that's a 14 shot group that's .217". And that group is no fluke... Think a stock 10/22 can do that??? I'd bet my left nut that it can't. I'm willing to bet that the outcome of this next challenge would be a tieTake a heavy barreled savage 22lr, get the trigger down to 1/2 pound, and put a 20x scope on it. Now take a 54, 64, 452, whatever you want...and get the trigger to 1/2 pound and put a 20X scope on it. Now take 5 different types of bulk ammo and shoot 5 shot groups. I'm willing to bet that the single best group of each rifle is about the same. Now take 5 different types of high grade target ammo. Shoot 5 shot groups. I'm willing to bet that the single best group of each rifle is about the same. Bottom line. Not to knock the professional or serouis shooters. but it's about the attention to detail you are willing to use than it is about the model of the gun you are shooting.
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Post by jimh on Jan 24, 2006 12:18:57 GMT -5
NO red my m77/22 shot ok from the start and now shoots realy good. my m77 mark II shot so so, but i was expecting to shoot 5 shot groups out of a 7mm rem mag but wasn't really understanding how hot that barrel was going to get real quick. i bedded it only cause i want to see how good it could get. that 7mm could always get you 2 shots 3/4" apart, just couldn't squeeze that third one in there unless you let it coole down. just so you have all the facts.
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Jan 24, 2006 12:39:28 GMT -5
edit
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Post by jimh on Jan 24, 2006 12:43:39 GMT -5
Red, i don't think you're that far off. personaly, i think the vast majority of rimfire barrels of today are far and away a better barrel than most want to give it credit for. trigger work would make a big diff. in a lot of rifles. hey red where's the images? need to tweak your post.
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Jan 24, 2006 12:46:45 GMT -5
I've only got the one image. I had some problems initially with the size...hence the delays.
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Post by jimh on Jan 24, 2006 12:57:13 GMT -5
what ammo did you run through your rifle on that outing?
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Jan 24, 2006 13:07:01 GMT -5
dynapoints. At 25 yards, I rarely get a flyer with this ammo in my auto or bolt. At 50 yards, I can't say that... My auto actually shoots slightly better 14 shot groups than my 7 shot bolt at 25 yards.
At 50 yards, the dynapoints generally shoot 1.5" with the marlin60 and about 1-1.25 with the marlin880. Both will hit a 12ga shell just about every time at 50-60 yards. marlin 60 has a trigger about 3 pounds from the factory. the 880 is closer to 6 pounds. both have a 3x9x32 on them. When I did that dangerous pen spring trick last year and got a 1/2 pound trigger the groups really came in my 880 when I shot powerpoints.
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Post by jimh on Jan 24, 2006 13:16:45 GMT -5
red go back to my old post on that rifle and you'll see before i tweaked the trigger i did manage to get a couple of 1/2" groups at 50 yds. that was after i put it into the wood stock. after i put the new sear in, i got some 3/8" groups at 50 yds. not bad for a 25.00 upgrade on the sear. with the old plastic stock i got 1/4" groups at 25 yds, and that was pretty consistant. i have not grouped it at 25 yds since the change over. i was actualy suppose to take it out over the weekend but my leg has been killing me so the boys and i laid around all day on sun. we will get out soon though and i'll post some pics.
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Post by klsm54 on Jan 24, 2006 14:12:53 GMT -5
I'm going to stick my neck out on the chopping block and you guys can whack away at it. I'm willing to bet that the outcome of this next challenge would be a tieTake a heavy barreled savage 22LR, get the trigger down to 1/2 pound, and put a 20x scope on it. Now take a 54, 64, 452, whatever you want...and get the trigger to 1/2 pound and put a 20X scope on it. Now take 5 different types of bulk ammo and shoot 5 shot groups. I'm willing to bet that the single best group of each rifle is about the same. Now take 5 different types of high grade target ammo. Shoot 5 shot groups. I'm willing to bet that the single best group of each rifle is about the same. I'm willing to bet that the outcome would NOT be a tie. First off, 25 yard groups show me nothing, that would be like a 50 yard group with a centerfire rifle. By your own admission, your .217 group will open to over an inch at 50 yards. That in itself should show that 25 yard groups are not a good judge of 22LR accuracy. I lived this challenge, or a very similar challenge. Too bad the old site is gone or I could dig up the old posts. My local gun club, that has had an active 22 LR team for decades, stated up a "Plinker" league back in the late 70's. It started with a mishmash of about everything going as far as Sporter 22's go. The rules were simple, 8 pounds maximum weight and no scope higher than 9X. There were lots of old-timers around, so there were some good vintage rifles to be found. But some people were stuck with open sighted single shots with no scope grooves. So a few of the guys needing new rifles went out and bought Anschutz 54 Sporters, and that opened the floodgates. The competition shooting was position, but much tinkering was being done from the bench in order to get the guns sighted in and to try various ammos and accuracy improvements. Well, let me tell you that there were NO....NONE...NADDA....Not a single rifle.....no matter how much bedding, crowning, trigger lightening, that could even come close to the Anschutz 54's. Now shortly after that, Remington brought out the 540 model, and it was a close second. But the older Remington's, Winchesters, Mossy's and Marlins could not be made to shoot in the same class. Now granted, there was no such thing as a Kimber, a Cooper, or even a Sako 22 rimfire at that time. Quite simply, there was nothing made , in a sporter weight rifle, that could even come close to the accuracy of an Anschutz 54. Some tried to save a few bucks and bought 64's. But there are lot's of shooters still around to testify, if you wanted the most accurate 22 rifle, it was a 54 Anschutz. Fast forward to the late '80's early 90's. Now I had an Anschutz 54, and a new gun club started some chicken shoots in their converted church to pass the winter evenings. The rules were the same as the plinker league rules. The big difference was that these guys had no previous experience other than shooting squirrels. The matches alternated from off-hand to the bench. Simple, one shot, closest to the X on a 50 foot NRA target. For each match, the best target won a chicken, fully dressed, thank goodness. Well, let me tell you. 3 of us with Anschutz 54's started attending those shoots, by invitation of one of the club members we worked with. It was downright embarrassing. We won every bench match, and the majority of the offhand matches for a month or so. We actually started throwin' a shot every now and then so as not to seem too greedy. The first thing that happened was some new scopes started showing up, replacing those 3/4" tube 4 powers that were the norm. That, along with a bunch of trigger tinkering, improved the shooting quite a bit, but we still finished the season with a whole bunch of chickens in our freezers. The next year it looked like a whole new gun club. There were a couple brand spanking new Ruger 77/22's there, one fellow had found a used Remington 540, and a couple had sprung for Anschutz's, even if they were 64's. We still won some chickens, but the guy who gave us the most competition was shooting a Ruger 77/22, that had some trigger work. Since those days I have shot alongside many 22 rifles. Sako's, Rugers, Kimbers, and Remingtons, along with plenty of Marlin's, Mossy's and a few Savages, and I have yet to see a sporter weight 22 out shoot an Anschutz 54. I have a buddy with a Sako 78 that will come close, but for some reason, probably him or the ammo, it seems to produce a flyer every now and then that keeps it from being an equal. I also know a guy who has a Kimber that can shoot right with my Anschutz, but other than the occasional better group, his average is never better. Some Ruger 77/22's are darn good shooters, especially when they have aftermarket triggers, but not comparable to a 54 Anschutz. But I have never seen a Marlin, a Savage shoot near as well. I cannot comment on the CZ's as I have never even seen one at the range. So I just plain don't agree Red. I think that if you want the utmost in an accurate 22, you need to be looking at Anschutz, Kimber, Cooper, or the likes. All that being said, I'm not trying to belittle all the average priced 22's out there. A good shooting Marlin or Savage will do everything a guy could ask of it while prowling the squirrel woods. There are certainly dozens of 22 rifles that can hit a squirrel in the head at 50-60 yards. But if you want the ultimate in 22 accuracy, it is my opinion that you are going to have to spend a little money, on the rifle and the ammo... ;D ;D
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Post by jimh on Jan 24, 2006 14:35:30 GMT -5
That's what i'm talking about! come guys tell us your stories. scott what dof. is there between the 54 and the 64? do they have the same quality barrel?
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Jan 24, 2006 15:23:03 GMT -5
Just to clear two thoughts
1. as far as an average semi-auto goes, I think the distance by which they need to be judged is LESS than 50 yards. And admittitly, it should probably be more than 25. they are just not in the same class as an average bolt action.
2. My "challenge" was intended to be at 50 yards although I did not mention it. But answer this question guys. What then makes an expensive gun more accurate than a cheap gun? It is the action(by brand name), the barrel, etc? Or is it the trigger, the stock, scope, etc?
Here's my arguement and I don't think there is going to be a whole lot of dispute about it. Take a 22lr - in general, any brand bolt action gun being produced today. Put a 6 pound trigger and a 9x scope and shoot it at 50 yards with a target ammo the gun likes. Now take the same gun with a 1 pound trigger and a 18x scope. I think your groups are going to be cut between 1/3 - 1/2 of what the old group was. I think this is true of both the expensive and cheap rifles UNLESS you as a shooter is just that damn good. The point is - cheap guns are shot with cheap accessories, cheap stocks, heavy triggers, and smaller scopes. Expensive guns generally have a better stock, lighter triggers, and guys are going towards bigger scopes.
Again, I'm going knock on Ruger a little bit (because it's so fun) you take a 77. And I'm not using Jim's as an example, I'm just using any 77. By the time you are done doing all the tricks to it, is it really a ruger anymore??? You buy a new stock made by another company, you buy another barrel made another company, you can totally replace the trigger. The only thing that makes it a ruger is the action that it's based on. If accuracy is based on the gun's action, then after all the customization - the gun should shoot the same. I will conceed though, that the 452, 54, etc could be made with such consideration to the "little things" that it can be said that the stock version of the gun is vastly superior. I am sticking to my statement that it's the quality of the accessories (whether stock or aftermarket) that makes the difference.
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Post by klsm54 on Jan 24, 2006 16:27:54 GMT -5
I don't think that it is the strength that makes the 54 action more accurate, but it's more rigid bolt, positive locking, and lightning fast lock time. Although it is obviously stronger being chambered for the Hornet and 222 Remington in addition to rimfire calibers. The 54 has won more Olympic Medals than all other actions combined. The 54 action is CNC machined from a solid steel block. The bolt lug recesses are machined eccentrically for optimum bedding. The bolt's eccentric face is recessed, there are dual rear locking lugs, a claw extractor, and a fixed ejector. The unique in-line firing pin is very light, has a short travel, and gives the Match 54 action the world's fastest lock time. It also allows dry firing without damage. The bolt and cam are lapped for smooth operation. The 64 Action is CNC machined and has a Cam Locking bolt. The bolt face is fully recessed and it has a claw extractor. According to Anschutz, the barrels are the same, or almost. They are both fitted with 8 groove button rifled Olympic Match Grade Barrels. They both are target crowned. The Model 54 however, gets one more lapping operation to it's barrels. In my opinion, and in what seems to be the consensus among competitive shooters and Dieter Anschutz himself, the 54 is a superior action. But the 64 is still a very good action and is probably still superior to many other rimfire actions. Oh yeah, both actions have adjustable triggers and are set at the factory for a pull weight.....are you ready for this......2.5 lbs.... ....Apparently the corporate lawyers in Germany don't suffer from the paranoia of American lawyers. Either that, or they don't have the clout that an American legal department does...
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Post by jimh on Jan 24, 2006 17:01:00 GMT -5
What's the prices of the two?? on average.
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Post by klsm54 on Jan 24, 2006 18:40:17 GMT -5
Just to clear two thoughts 1. as far as an average semi-auto goes, I think the distance by which they need to be judged is LESS than 50 yards. And admittitly, it should probably be more than 25. they are just not in the same class as an average bolt action. I feel that the cartridge should determine the distance for evaluation. After all, your Marlin Semi and my Anschutz Bolt are used for the same purposes in the field.... 2. My "challenge" was intended to be at 50 yards although I did not mention it. But answer this question guys. What then makes an expensive gun more accurate than a cheap gun? It is the action(by brand name), the barrel, etc? Or is it the trigger, the stock, scope, etc? I think it is a combination of factors. The action, the barrel, the fit of the components, the bedding etc. The trigger really doesn't make the gun more accurate, it only serves to make it easier for the shooter to achieve the guns full accuracy potential. Thusly it IS a major factor in how a shooter performs. I don't see the scope as factor between two rifles. A Marlin or an Anshutz will both achieve their utmost accuracy from the same quality scope, and both will suffer greatly from inferior opticsHere's my arguement and I don't think there is going to be a whole lot of dispute about it. Take a 22lr - in general, any brand bolt action gun being produced today. Put a 6 pound trigger and a 9x scope and shoot it at 50 yards with a target ammo the gun likes. Now take the same gun with a 1 pound trigger and a 18x scope. I think your groups are going to be cut between 1/3 - 1/2 of what the old group was. I think this is true of both the expensive and cheap rifles UNLESS you as a shooter is just that damn good. The point is - cheap guns are shot with cheap accessories, cheap stocks, heavy triggers, and smaller scopes. Expensive guns generally have a better stock, lighter triggers, and guys are going towards bigger scopes. I agree with this part, for the most part. Surely a good trigger pull and decent ammo will significantly shrink the group size of a rifle with a trigger pull heavier than the guns weight shooting Wally World Bucket o' Bullets. But I don't see the need for a scope more powerful than 9X when only shooting 50 yards. The exception might be serious competitive shooting, but I am talking sporter weight guns in my examples. A decent 3-9X scope, that has a parralax adjustment suitable for rimfire ranges, will easily wring ALMOST all the potential from a 22LR rifle.Again, I'm going knock on Ruger a little bit (because it's so fun) you take a 77. And I'm not using Jim's as an example, I'm just using any 77. By the time you are done doing all the tricks to it, is it really a ruger anymore??? I don't know what Bill Ruger did to you, but you have pretty much lost any credibility you ever had as an evaluator of Rugers quality due to your obvious hatred of ALL Ruger products. ;D ;D..... I think that most Rugers, at least a 77/22, only need a decent trigger pull to become pretty darned accurate shooting 22's. To me, a new sear and a little tuning and the rifle is still a Ruger. Now if you strip your 10/22 and relace everything but the outside of the action, you don't really have a Ruger. But, again, I don't see that all those parts are needed to make a 10/22 fully serviceable. A tack driver? Maybe not, but fully capable of MOS (minute of squirrel) accuaracy to 50 yards or so.You buy a new stock made by another company, you buy another barrel made another company, you can totally replace the trigger. The only thing that makes it a ruger is the action that it's based on. If accuracy is based on the gun's action, then after all the customization - the gun should shoot the same. I will conceed though, that the 452, 54, etc could be made with such consideration to the "little things" that it can be said that the stock version of the gun is vastly superior. I am sticking to my statement that it's the quality of the accessories (whether stock or aftermarket) that makes the difference.
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