Cap and Ball convertible cylinders

[Purebred Redneck]

There are several companies making "drop-in" (I use that term loosely) cylinders that converts a cap and ball into a centerfire revolver (cowboy loads only). They run about $200-250.

I'm thinking about getting one for my 44cal 1858 --- it would then be able to shoot smokeless cowboy 45lc. When shooting blackpowder, it literally takes me 1 1/2 hours start to finish to clean the thing. I've probably done this 10 times and I accept this is the required time for me. With that in mind, I don't plan on shooting this gun but once or twice a year. It's just too big of a pain in the butt to clean.

So I'm thinking about getting another cylinder which basically gives you a brand new gun for 250 dollars. I can go out, fire a couple rounds, wipe it off as you normally do, and forget about it.

So are there any experiences with this? I know a lot of people have to take some metal off the frame in order to get the cylinder to rotate. Is that something a novice can do himself or would it be prefered a gunsmith to do it?

thanks

[dovehunter]

My first question would be would be, even with the new cylinder, would the rest of the gun be strong enough to handle modern, smokeless powder .45LC loads? Is the bore diameter of your .44 '58 Remington clone the proper size for .45LC?

I knew of a guy than ran a gunshop up the road from me that converted a Colt .36 cal. Navy repro. revolver to shoot the .38 S&W cartridge. His seemed to work okay. In fact I even sold my .36 Colt Navy repro. to some guy from one of the shooting boards to do the same thing. The .38 S&W is a pretty low pressure cartridge, but I would have some reservations about factory loaded .45LC rounds being shot in a blackpowder repro. Let's see what the others think.

[Purebred Redneck]

From the research I've done as well as information on the cylinder manufacturer's website, you can safely shoot 45lc provided they are the cowboy loads and lead (no jacketed bullets).

The cylinder itself is made to withstand the pressure. The rest of gun as is will handle it just fine (assuming it's steel and not brass). It's the cylinder you need to worry about.

As far as the bore size, a 44cal cap and ball is actually 45 caliber. It shoots 451 and 454 balls --- the same diameter as a 45lc bullet.

[Purebred Redneck]

I take that back a little bit. While you do shoot 451 and 454 balls, you are shaving some lead off when you seat the ball.

[deputydon]

May 13, 2008 14:17:35 GMT -5 dovehunter said:

My first question would be would be, even with the new cylinder, would the rest of the gun be strong enough to handle modern, smokeless powder .45LC loads? Is the bore diameter of your .44 '58 Remington clone the proper size for .45LC?

I knew of a guy than ran a gunshop up the road from me that converted a Colt .36 cal. Navy repro. revolver to shoot the .38 S&W cartridge. His seemed to work okay. In fact I even sold my .36 Colt Navy repro. to some guy from one of the shooting boards to do the same thing. The .38 S&W is a pretty low pressure cartridge, but I would have some reservations about factory loaded .45LC rounds being shot in a blackpowder repro. Let's see what the others think.

I tend to agree w/ Dovehunter..... What do you think 2M's ?

[jmarriott]

Hey Red

You can get a Smith and Wesson Victory revolver 38 for about 200 or 250 in 4, 5 and sometimes 6 inch barrel. Not only do you have a plinker that should shoot as well as the refit 45lc but a piece of WWII history all in the same price range.

Auction # 99393851

Auction # 99429287
Auction # 99508912

just a couple of gunbroker auctions running online right now in as good a shape as yiou can get i would not pay over 250. Believe me the price of these will go up and the 250 for the cylinder won't.

[bounce]

I could make some comments hear as I have a 1851 navy made to a .38 special & love it. But T/M's knows all their is to know & will say it much better, well maybe we can allways tell what his mood is when he writes. lol.

[Purebred Redneck]

I'll take a look at the S&W. I really like the looks of the 1858 and if I'm going to get a drift adjustable site cut into the barrel I might as well take advantage of a cylinder I would actually shoot.

Midway had R&D on sale for like $150 dollars a few weeks ago. I might look tonight again.

This is an excerpt from the R&D website which is the one I'm looking at --- it's cheaper than the Kirst brand. I sent the company an email with a couple questions so I'm interested in hearing back from them

www.randdgunshop.com/about.html

Now we come to the second phase in the evolution of R&D Gun Shop.

Realizing the desire of the public to own a cartridge conversion, Kenny turned his design talents and eye for detail to a marketable "drop in" conversion, that could be sold for a fraction of what a full house Howell Conversion would sell for.

The result was the 45 Colt conversion cylinder for the 1858 Remington style revolvers made by Pietta and Uberti. These cylinders featured and removable back plate, as was found on the originals, that when taken off, exposed the chambers to be loaded with centerfire cartridges. The plate is then replaced on the cylinder, and the assembly, cylinder loaded with cartridges and back plate installed, is put into the frame, replacing the original percussion cylinder. The revolver is then cocked and fired as normal, and the assembly taken out, the empty cartridges removed and replaced with fresh ones to reload the revolver. While it sounds like a slow way to reload the revolver, it was, and is, much faster than loading a percussion cylinder with loose powder and ball!

The Remington cylinder is constructed of 4150 Arsenal Grade steel, which is certified for firearms use and is pre-hardened, requiring the use of carbide cutters to machine. Kenny didn't "have" to use this high grade of a steel, he choose to because he has a reputation for the best and will offer nothing less.

The unique thing about the Remington cylinder is it's six-shot capacity with the venerable 45 Colt cartridge. In fact, this was so unique, Kenny was issued a patent on it! The chambers in the cylinder are angled ever so slightly to allow the full six-shot capacity.

Competitors have written much about this on various bulletin boards, and have tried to use this to dissuade potential buyers to another product. The fact of the matter is, the angle is 5/8 of ONE DEGREE! That is minimal to say the least! Many revolvers have chambers that are further off than that from the factory. The nay-sayers have crowed about this "angle" for a long time, and it is just "much ado about nothing"! The Howell Remington conversion cylinder makes for one of the most accurate 45 Colt revolvers you can get your hands on and they are used countless thousands of times every weekend by numerous Cowboy Action Shooters in local monthly SASS matches!

The Remington cylinders are available exclusively from Taylor's & Co. in Winchester, VA .

[twomoons]

Bore diameter in the 44 revolvers is usually close to 450. Ball size is 451-454 so the ball will be a tight fit in the cylinder and usually with a 545 you shave a ring of lead. The 45 Cowboy loads run a 452 bullet at about 690-740 fps and pressure is held to about 12 thousand or so. The conversion cyliinders work per say but you need to pull the cylinder out to reload and it's just as quick to reload with paper ctgs in capp and ball, why bother. If it takes 1 1/2 hours to clean a cap and ball you are doing something wrong. Put some BP cleaner or regular windex in a windex sprayer. Take out the cyliinder and spray it down brush and rinse off in hot watter and squirt with WD 40 or your prefered. Squirt down the barrel and frame window and brush rinse and oil. 15 minutes tops. You DON'T need to take the action apart more than once a year for inspection and oiling.

[dovehunter]

While we're on this subject, wouldn't you also need a new or modified hammer in such situations. I know the hammer on my '58 Remington repro. is flat on the surface where it would strike the percussion cap. Wouldn't you need a hammer with a firing pin on it to set off the primers of metallic cartridge cases?

Regarding the conversion of the '51 Navy model to shoot .38 S&W cartridges, I seem to recall that the one I saw had a opening cut into the right side of the frame (sort of like a Colt Peacemaker without the hinged cover) so that spend cartridges could I guess be poked out with a rod of some sort instead of having to remove the cylinder. Could the same sort of thing be done to Red's '58 Remington repro.?

[Purebred Redneck]

I'm going to have to try that next time b/c clearly I'm going about it the hard way.

I've always done the soap, water, and patches method on the rifle and I'm trying to do that with the pistol too --- which has 6 more bores (clyinder) and 5 more nipples. I'm also trying to clean the inside of the action. I'm taking wet/soapy Q-tips and digging around in there through the cocked hammer a dozen or so times until they come out clean. I don't care too much about the condition of the inside other than I want everything functioning correctly and I don't want springs and such corroding.

I'm using 777 (which I've found to be far less corrosive than pyrodex) so I think I can afford to halfazz the cleaning a bit.

I'm just a little leary when it comes to corrosive powder.

[Purebred Redneck]

Dovehunter

The conversion cylinders have their own firing pins (the kirst brand has one and the R&D brand has 6) so the hammer isn't an issue.

As far as the loading port, you can do this and make it a more conventional single action army. With the 1858, it's not so much of a deal because you can take the cylinder out easily. With the Colt guns, you obvouisly have to take the wedge and barrel out every time you want to reload (which is time consuming and wears down those parts) --- so the part makes sense in those guns.
HOWEVER when you add the loading ports, you have made a firearm and you can not sell it.

[bounce]

Well I thought T/M's would have went with more but maybe not a lot more on the market now? A few short years ago ARMI SAN MARCO made some nice moldels for NAVY ARMS with loading gate & push rod for empty shells, mine is the 1851 navy .38 special. T/M's at the time sold several in the diffarent models and I never heard any that did not shoot well, and as far as I know anyone that got one is happy. I don't think even T/M's is much at ease when I show up with it at a cowboy shoot, but he still out run's me. It's a nice shooter!!

[twomoons]

If I were going to get one I would get a dedicated 45 Colt 1858 from Cimarron. The so called conversions are too unhandy as you need to be taking out a cylinder splitting it into two parts and then dumping out 5 cases. Sure as shootin' you will either drop something in the mud or off the bridge or leave it behind. The dedicated conversion has the modified hammer and loads through a gate and is a much better outfit.

[dovehunter]

Bounce:

I seem to recall having seen the modification you described on some '51 Navy models in some Clint Eastwood western flicks. They had the swing-out loading gates and spring loaded ejector rods on the side just like the '73 Single Action Army models. I wonder now if those were the real things or the repros you described in your post.