Question on pointers

[bullseye]

When hunting grouse last week I met a guy from southern Indiana in the woods. He had two pointers equiped with electronic whistles or beepers. I could hear him coming over a 1/2 mile away.

I know the reason for them but listening to that all day would drive me crazy. This is not the first time I have encountered this either. It seems every time I run into someone with a pointer they have one of these beepers on their dog(s) and they are from down in the Kentucky-Tennessee area. This guy was close.

Are they really needed?

[deputydon]

When hunting in CRP thats 6-8' tall you bet ya..................The other thing is that guys that I have met from down there used to train their dogs up here and they hunted w/ them like we do coons. turn em loose and let them run when they locked on point they would hold forever!!!!!!!!!! The guys also used horses ( Tenn. walkers) to keep up w/ the dogs. It was interesting to watch to say the least.

[Purebred Redneck]

Like Don said, in the CRP it's a benefit considering you can't see the dog.
This is also important up in northern Missouri because a pheasant won't hold a point long - if at all. You have to litterally RUN to a point.

[Bill]

Those bells and beepers are for the guys that use dogs with big wheels Bullseye. They might hunt anywhere from 200 yds to 1/2 mile ahead of the hunter. Some of the hunters use horses and some just let the dog keep them cornered until they get there. Its just a differant way of using your dogs and covering ground.
Myself I like a dog thats kind of a boot polisher. One that hunts close. If they hunt that close and are a flusher you need to be with the dog when that happens and if your not a runner or ridding a horse then they better be working close and no need for a bell or a beeper.
Its all the same, hunting. Just differant methods.

[Jack]

In field trials for pointing dogs, how much ground a dog covers is a large factor in determining the winner of a field trial. If your dog is running 300 yards ahead of you, you'll do well in field trials. The judges usually are on horseback to keep up with the dogs.
In real world hunting, where you are walking thru brush or high grass,a pointer that stays close will be a whole bunch more practical, IME.
It's the old show dog/ working dog difference.
Bullseye, next time you run into one of those folks using a beeper, ask em if they field trial their dog- I bet you get a 'yes'.
I used to hang a small bell on my dog's collar when I went hunting. If the bell stopped tinkling, and you couldn't see her (rare) GET READY

[bullseye]

When I was looking for a dog a few years ago I read some of Jabba's comments on his GSP. While I have to admit I was tempted I thought of what and how I hunted and decided on a flusher. Grouse won't most times stay still for an extended period of time like I understand say quail will. I have hunted grouse, pheasant, and woodcock and for how I hunt I didn't feel that a pointer was my best choice.

I think it is in Tennessee where in certain areas the only kind of bird dog that can hunt there is a pointer. I wouldn't imagine someone from that area would hunt with anything else. One wouldn't purchase a dog that you couldn't hunt with locally for a week or two trip "up north" once a year.

I think you hit on the key for both flushers or pointers Jack....keep them close. My buddy Jim doesn't have very good control of his dog Molly and she is constantly flushing birds 70-90 yards ahead of us. At that rate I may as well stayed in camp because my chances at a shot are very very slim.

The next time I run into a hunter with a pointer Jack I will ask him if he field trials his dog. Funny thing is that as soon as I see a hunter with a pointer grouse hunting when I talk with him he will have a southern accent. There are a very few locals that grouse hunt with pointers up here. Most of them have flushers and a fair amount of them labs and Chessies too. I think many times they want an all around dog that they can hunt upland and waterfowl with. While my springer loves to swim and I imagine would learn to retrieve ducks, she doesn't have the fur coat required for that task when the weather gets cooler and I gave up hunting ducks and geese when I could still legally use lead shot.

[deputydon]

bill said:

Those bells and beepers are for the guys that use dogs with big wheels Bullseye. They might hunt anywhere from 200 yds to 1/2 mile ahead of the hunter. Some of the hunters use horses and some just let the dog keep them cornered until they get there. Its just a differant way of using your dogs and covering ground.
Myself I like a dog thats kind of a boot polisher. One that hunts close. If they hunt that close and are a flusher you need to be with the dog when that happens and if your not a runner or ridding a horse then they better be working close and no need for a bell or a beeper.
In the tall CRP I have @ times "lost" Lisa and have thought one of those collars that beep when the dog stops moving.
Its all the same, hunting. Just differant methods.

[jabba]

I have e-collars for my dogs... but I use a bell, then set the e-collar to beep on point.

I have lost my pointers while grouse hunting. They point, and I can't find 'em!

I have not had a lot of success grouse hunting with the newer dogs either, although I am going to try to hit it hard this year. They come in October 1 here, and the 4 year old dog is getting a lot better.

The 5 month old dog... well, she will get some exercize.



Jabba

[Jack]

"Grouse won't most times stay still for an extended period of time like I understand say quail will."
I'd disagree with that....at least a NY state ruffed grouse will hold for a long time, if the dog doesn't bump the bird.
IME experience, grouse, quail, and woodcock will all hold for a pointing dog that doesn't get too close and bump the bird. In contrast, a dog used to grouse will have pheasants run off on them- grouse dogs tend not to get too close to birds. A pointing dog used to pheasants will get close enough to freeze a pheasant- but that dog will consistently bump grouse.
All in what the dog is trained on and used to, IME.
When I was a kid, we had a male English Setter that was hopeless on grouse (he bumped em all) but great on pheasants- when he pointed a pheasant, that bird froze! More than once, the bird froze because he was literally standing on the bird's tail

[jabba]

I grouse hunted with a guy once that had a brittany mutt. We hit the woods... and when we got to a spot on the bottom of a 450' tall hill he stopped and the dog took off up the hill. He said... lets just wait here for a bit.

After about 5 minutes, grouse started flying over us. 4 of them. The dog went up the hill, and drove the grouse down off the hill toward us. We limited on them in about 30 minutes.

He said the dog figured it all out by himself. That guy said he killed 50-60 grouse every year with that dog.

Jabba

[Bill]

Now that would be an awsome dog Jabba.
I will say this and that is that there are a lot of dogs a hell of a lot smarter than we give them credit for and some a lot smarter than the human that owns them
With enough time and patiance a good dog will figure out what it takes to get the bird as they have a very highly developed need to "Get the bird"
Biggest problem is training. Dogs that have never been on Grouse ground WILL have trouble with Grouse in finding them and figuring out whats actually going on. Some pick it up quick and some never do. I do beilive that a good dog wether its a pointer or a flusher will figure out how to do it over a period of time though.

[bullseye]

Jack our woodcock do as you describe above. I think seeing they are basically a night bird and usually fly into a place for rest for the day there is no scent trail for the dog to follow. I have actually seen the dog have to poke them with their nose to get them to flush. I have never hunted grouse outside of Wisconsin but ours don't sit like yours do. I have watched grouse run ahead of the dog for a short ways before flushing. One of the things that especially early grouse do is just hop up into the nearest tree and look down on the dog from a low hanging limb.
I have never hunted quail here or anywhere and the only knowledge I have of them is what I have seen watching hunting shows on TV.
We do have a small population of spruce grouse in the state and they do react as you describe. The dog seems to have to almost run them over before they flush and then they don't go far.
It is funny how the same species of bird or animal seems to react differently in various areas of their range.
Now while Panda is a great dog for grouse and woodcock the jury is still out on her for pheasants but I have only taken her once at a game farm. She found the birds just fine but did not initially know how to react when the pheasant wouldn't flush. I think her exposure to grouse taught her that the birds would always fly when she got close to them, just my thoughts because she won't tell me. I am guessing again that if I hunted pheasants with her more she would adapt to the different habits they have.
The funniest pheasant was a rooster that just stood there. I could see the bird and when she found it she didn't initially pounce. She looked at it and walked all the way around it looking back at me as if to say what the heck. The rooster turned around to keep an eye on the dog. Finally Panda stopped and looked at me as if to say "What do I do now?" I said "Well get it!!!" That was all she needed and she charged the pheasant, the pheasant realized the jig was up and flushed.