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Post by twomoons on Dec 19, 2011 12:19:49 GMT -5
Decisions, decisions....
"The time has come the Walrus said to speak of many things, of saiiling ships and sealing wax and cabbages and kings..."
My last dedicated varmint rifle was bought new in 1973 and was a Ruger. I used the Ruger rings that came with the rifle and put on a Weaver K10 scope and was good to go. Back in those days a variiable scope was OK for deer but most wouldn't hold zero well enough when shifting power and no serious shooter would have one. The K10 was OK for dogs and standing yotes but sucked on a running target.
Now I have a rifle in the works and first I looked at mounts. I thought about steel Leupold mounts but since I was going to fit them to the action anyway I decided to save a little weight and went with a one piece base for Weaver rings that has been glass bedded to the action. The rings are the Weaver 4x4's lapped square. Now for a scope, I have several in the shop right now ranging from a Leupold 3x9 to a Bec 6x24 and a Simmon's A tec 2.8x12. Since this gun wil not be going horseback and I have a nice padded case I don't think I need a all steel scope costing more than the rifle. I would like a scope that will hold zero through the whole range of adjustment and I do need a low enough bottom end to take a shoot at a running coyote so 6 would be my maximuum bottom end and I like the 2.8 3x range best. I don't know if I will need a lighted reticle like the Simmons and Bec have but it might be nice for moonlight calling. I am shaky enough in my old age that I don't know if I can really use anything over 12X. I tried a 20 power scope one time and it looked like I was bouncing all over the target and I kept wanting to jerk the trigger off. Yes I know breath control squeeze, between hearbeats, it was easier 30 years ago. So bottom line is what scope will I put on...
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Post by deputydon on Dec 19, 2011 13:25:11 GMT -5
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Post by jimiowa on Dec 19, 2011 16:55:05 GMT -5
Wow there are always going to be tradeoffs.
For a walking varminter that .2.8 X12 would be a good choice
But if I'm getting your drift that Remington might be heavy for a walking rifle. And for Prarie Dawgs at 500 yds 12 might not be enough. I suspect you would be using a bipod or rest to go that distance which would help the magnification shake.
Of the 3 scopes you mention and I'm not familiar with Bec, the 6X24 would be the best compromise in my opinion.
I've seen Gordy Gritter shoot 1000 yds with a 6.5X20 Leopold
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Post by Jack on Dec 19, 2011 17:21:01 GMT -5
Maybe you need 2 scopes. One with a 2x or 3x low end for coyote hunting, and another scope with a high end around 16x or 20x for prairie dogs.
Personally, once you get to 20x, any more power just increases the mirage, in my experience. I don't shoot a rifle with a scope like that without some sort of rest, either. When woodchuck hunting I take a sturdy portable table, sandbags, and a Sinclair front rest.
For field shooting without a solid rest, 3-9 or 4-12 makes a lot more sense to me.
I don't know the BEC.
It's been my experience that cheap scopes will shift zero when you change power. You might be in a position to test a few, and find one that won't.
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bounce
Royal Member
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Post by bounce on Dec 19, 2011 20:15:53 GMT -5
12 is fine and 2.8 is better You just need an acurate rifle & the ability to see the target.
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Post by Bill on Dec 20, 2011 10:25:17 GMT -5
If you want to do things right it isn't so much the variable power you need to look at so much as whether or not the scope tracks right. Most of the scopes out there have better glass in them than the old Weaver K10 you speak of. What really makes the difference anymore is how well they track when dialing back and forth for different ranges. The guts of the scope make all the difference in the world. Also a reticule with fine cross hairs works best. You don't need all the gimmick cross hairs, just a standard set of fine's. What you do need is again I will repeat. Good set of guts. Over the last few years I have gotten rid of all my scopes that didn't dial. All of them with the thick cross hairs. Most all of my scopes have the fine duplex reticule. My favorite is the Leupold VX3 6.5X20X50 30MM LRT. The one scope I have that is not a Leupold is a 6.5X20X50 1" tube Nikon UCC and it is a POS compared to the Leupold. It will not track correctly so I put it on a .22 Rifle. I even have a VXIII 6.5X20X40 1" scope on my Remington 541T HB with a set of Stoney Point turrets on it for dialing. It is probably 15 years old but it tracks well yet. Now for some of the scopes that do work well and have great guts in them there are some out there that are reasonably priced but none of them are cheap. Sightron SIII Side Focus Long Range Leupold VXIII Side Focus LRT's Huskemaw Long Range These are some I would consider as they track right and have great glass and really great warranty's Life time, No questions asked. Spend once and cry once. Also loose the Weaver crap. EGW makes a .20 MOA one piece base that is aluminum or steel and run from $35 to $90 and gives you more adjustment to your scope for those long range shots. SWFA sells an aluminum set of Tactical rings that has inserts that allow it to be used on both 30MM and 1" tubes and cost about $35. Again cry once. For the most part you can get by without a 20MOA base if like the Leupold scopes in the VXIII LRT scopes in 30MM which have enough internal adjustment to handle just about anything the .223 can do. Some scopes don't so you need that base to give you enough. But if you pay attention and don't go getting cheap you can put together a rig that will do just about anything you want at any range you wish within reason. And with enough scope clarity to allow you to see what your shooting at. Next get a good folding PD bench and a front and rear rest to keep the shakes away. Do all that and then you can just put it in the back of the vehicle and you just drag it out, set up and shoot from there. You don't need to do a crap load of walking then.  |
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Post by jmarriott on Dec 20, 2011 18:32:44 GMT -5
I am looking at a somewhat simular situation.. All of the scopes don't play well in the safe. I am thinking of upgrading some scopes and downsizing a few. Warne quick detachable rings and a couple of nice scopes unstead of a dedicated scope for each rifle. Most likely goes back to my contender pistols as I have done this for years with them. I have good luck with with warne quick detach mounts. Repeatable on/off's The good folks at TC used to make bases that adjusted and one pistol scope could then be used on several barrels and still be on the money as the adjustments were in the bases. I think either it did not sell well or it worked to good and the scope makers asked them not to make them anymore. One that will stay where it is at is the old leopold m8 and it will stay on the rem 700 .222 rem. Target dot and 6 power fixed is perfect for that setup. 222 yards at 6 power! The other that basically stays is the leopold scout scope on the 44 mag as i only have one scout rifle anyway. Thats the woods gun. The weaver K4 post reticual stays on the savage 99 as it is period correct and once agian near perfect for the gun. I have been looking at 3 scopes, a 2X7 32mm mainly as a deer scope. should be able to use it on the 308's and the 22 calibers, A 4x12 power 44mm for the 243 and the 223 and a fixed 16 for the 22-250. I would sure like a leupold EFR 6.5-20 for my target 22's. I am sure that i could get used to moving it around as resighting it would be cheap and fun. They are not cheap at 799.00 each so i could spread the wealth around if I could use it on the 541 and the ruger. It 514t AND kIMBER 82g stay open peep sights. Maybe i am overthinking it a bit. I did pick up a redfield gold five star 2-7 on the 243 rem 700. Get a set of warnes and that would work well. That leaves a 4-12 and the fixed 16. the fixed 16 i think I have picked out. swfa.com/SWFA-SS-16x42-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P501.aspxYes it says tatical and sniper in the scope but these do rock and the price is right. The mill dot's will take a bit to get used to. As dad said when he shot one "too many dam dots" "Which one do you use. He likes my M8 with the target dot. The 4-12 might be a leupold as they still make gloss finish scopes. I just can't put matte scopes and a a-bolt medillion or rem 700 bld. If matte were of the bushnell 6200/6500 series gives you the target dot and a range of 2.5-16 power and they track accross the entire range of powers and reset to zero well. That is still an expensive scope. You can hear the click and they will return to zero correctly. swfa.com/Bushnell-Elite-6500-Rifle-Scopes-C1435.aspxOn the contender handguns I would like a 2-7 or 2-8 handgun scope when the eye relief stays constant across the powers. That rules out the burris. So i am still looking. Sure some rifles deserve a scope of there own. Since lots of my rifles are going to not get lots of play why not make a few scopes available to all. I just have to dial them in for the rifle they are mounted on and make a note of what is is currently attached to |
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bounce
Royal Member
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Post by bounce on Dec 21, 2011 2:41:27 GMT -5
I'm missing the $39 simons, just can't find them any more this year or the $59 bushnell.
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Post by Bill on Dec 21, 2011 8:19:45 GMT -5
Scopes have come a long way in the last 8-10 years. The demand for really great internals allowing for range adjustments that can be made while using a laser range finder has become huge. All things that we never use to do or use. We just use to set it and leave it and do the Kentucky windage thing which is pretty hit and miss.
Now days your just leaving too much on the table by doing that. Now you range it and look at your drop chart (which you will need to verify at the range) then you dial up the drops and shoot. Makes for the need for a shooting buddy that don't mind ranging your shots for you. ;D Then you just shoot. It still has its chances of a miss due to not reading the wind right or your shooting buddy not ranging it correctly but the chances of a hit way out there is a whole lot better than it used to be.
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Post by twomoons on Dec 21, 2011 10:52:23 GMT -5
This will tell you how old I am, we NEVER changed the adjustments when we had a rifle sighted in. The old scopes didn't TRACK, we always sighted and then held over for distance and off for windage. In fact that is why I had peeps on mt target rifles, peeps would adjust for range and scopes wouldn't. So I never thought about tracking. As to power I was pretty good out to 3-400 yards with a 10x and frankly I still am not into thinking abbout shots much farther than that. I am putting on the Simmons Aetec 2.8 x12 for right now as i will be usning it for coyotes till spring. I have another 6.5x24 in stock that I might slip on for dogs later. I probably won't put on a mil dot scope just because I am not use to them and the dots would be a waste for me. I AM looking at a Leupold 4-12 x40 AO that I can pick up for about 1/2 the cost of a rifle, I am not sure I am reaady to spend that kind of money, but I just got a set of Leupold binos and the clarity at range was well worth the money.
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Post by Jack on Dec 21, 2011 17:32:23 GMT -5
JMO, but the Mil Dot reticle isn't so great for varmint hunting. The dots are WAAY too big - they'll cover a varmint at 200 yards, much less longer distances where the dots might be otherwise useful.
Some of the new reticles we're seeing now, from Leupold, Burris, Zeiss Conquest, etc, are much better for varmint hunting.
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Post by jmarriott on Dec 21, 2011 17:43:21 GMT -5
. I probably won't put on a mil dot scope just because I am not use to them and the dots would be a waste for me. dad quote above. If he could see better he would still be using irons. He used my redfield 1-4 power scope for 3 years in deer season before he figured out He could change to power setting. I had it a 2.5, Here is one that will do what you want without breaking the bank. swfa.com/Swift-4-12x40-Premier-Rifle-Scope-P8849.aspxI have used swift premier handgun scope for years. 4 power handgun scope on both my 7-30 waters and 35 rem barrels. The leopolds without the click adjustments just the friction are not worth the cost. |
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Post by Bill on Dec 22, 2011 8:03:02 GMT -5
Only the cheapest Leupold's use the friction adjust any more. I have one of the old 6.5X20X40 VXlll's that is friction adjust and have a set of stoney point knobs on it and believe it or not it tracks pretty good.
Mil Dots and I do not get along. Especially if the reticule and the turrets are both MIL/MIL. My brain just does not work that way. One MIL is 3.6"s If the turret is set up for 3.6 I get all screwed up if I'm trying to dial things up.
If I'm using MOA and MOA I do just fine. 1 MOA is actually something like 1.046 but I kind of do so good with the 1.046 and just keep it at 1 MOA = 1" and do just fine that way. I use a laser range finder to range things and am not a sniper that uses the MIL's to range with and figure out drops with. Seems even the Military is rethinking that one a bit also.
All in all just get a set of duplex with the fine cross hair scopes for the long range PD work. Don't get all caught up in the rest of the stuff unless you just want to play with it.
IF you want you can send XPHunter a message and ask him what he recommends and give him the price range you can afford and he will let you know whats good and whats not. I do not recommend a Burris though. The last two I had made it to the circular file after one trip to a PD town. One didn't track worth a crap and the other the glass sucked so bad I just filed it.
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Post by jimh on Dec 22, 2011 13:59:03 GMT -5
i have a Sightron S2 6x HBR with fine target crosshair on one of my rifles and it tracks better than any other scope i have had.
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Post by Bill on Dec 23, 2011 7:32:11 GMT -5
Two Moons. Most of the guys I know that try to cheap it out find it just does not work very well for long range shooting on PD's. Most will buy ONE really good scope or fairly good scope and use it for everything if they have to. You could get by with a 4.5X15 in a 30MM tube with turrets and still use it for deer hunting. I myself find that the 30MM tube with good turrets means more due to the amount of drop they have built into them and a decent set of innards than the upper end power.
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