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Finally
Nov 9, 2011 14:54:20 GMT -5
Post by xphunter on Nov 9, 2011 14:54:20 GMT -5
Are you going to keep it chambered in the 264 Win Mag when you replace the tube?
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Finally
Nov 10, 2011 7:59:18 GMT -5
Post by Bill on Nov 10, 2011 7:59:18 GMT -5
I really doubt it. Don't get me wrong as I do like the .264 WM but I really wanted a .338 Edge. I do not like the .338 Lapua as it has too large of a case head for the Rem action for me to be comfortable with it. The Edge is too long for the Mag Box and turns it into a single shot without a lot of mods to the action. One alternative I have been looking at is the .338 RUM as it will match the Lapua for accuracy and speed and almost match the Edge. With the big 300 grain bullets it will still reach 1500 easily. And its a easier on barrels than the .264 WM. Besides, I have a Rem 700 Sendero II in 7MM Rem mag that I only just was able to get the barrel broke in and then quit and started in with the .264 WM. I was looking yesterday and noticed that I have close to 700 Bullets waiting for the 7MM to get up and running. ;D So it looks like once I get done with the season this year the .264 WM will probably be going back to Remington for the bolt face to be fixed as it is way too large for the firing pin and then its going to the gunsmith to get the tube change and hopefully be ready for next year.
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Finally
Nov 14, 2011 11:09:35 GMT -5
Post by Bill on Nov 14, 2011 11:09:35 GMT -5
Well I was unable to hunt opening day of the Mule deer season and my hunting buddy ended up not able to hunt the days I was able to so it looks like we hunt alone this year. He went up to hunting camp on Saturday along with one of the other guys that we were to hunt with as his guide to try to make a 1000 yard shot on a deer. He had all the equipment to do it but was unable to connect with a deer at 1000 yds and missed a number of times. He did end up getting a small 4X5 Mule buck and a doe and both within 30 seconds of each other so he filled his tag and was back home by 7:00 that evening. Happy but disgusted with himself for not being able to connect at what was actually 1040 yds so he could come back and say he beat me to it. When he came back we went over and over what had happened and what had gone wrong as we had practiced all summer to be able to do this. He had his drop's down and was shooting the gun well and had all the equipment to do it. Even guessed the wind right as all his shots were dead on. Problem was he shot over each time. After he described what he was seeing and where the bullet had hit and the scene before him I sat down and started working out the problem. Didn't take long to understand it as I went to my field notes and went over and over them and came up with the answer. He had set up on a ridge overlooking a long valley and was right at the lip of the ridge and glassing all the small drainage draws that go down into the valley and finally spotted a small buck at the base of one of the drainage draws and ranged it and came up with 1040 yds by the Leica range finder. His drop tables showed for 1040 he needed roughly 22.7 MOA dialed into his scope which was a Leupold MK 4 tactical 8X25X50 30MM scope. His rifle was a Rem Sendero II in .264 Win Mag shooting a 142 SMK bullet at 3170 fps. His bullet hits were what he roughly described were hitting about 4 or 5"s over the deers back by the dirt that flew up behind the deer on a perfect broadside shot. When he had missed 3 times by about the same amount he finally dropped his Point of aim about what he thoughts was about 1.5 MOA and shot and hit just a bit over the deer again. He then adjusted about 1.5 and and hit just under the deer throwing dirt all over the deer and upsetting the deer enough it took off. This is how he described it to me anyway. I asked him what he angle had been and was he shooting downhill and his answer was yes. I asked him how much and his answer was "it shouldn't make that much difference". WRONG ANSWER I had been pounding this whole scenario into his head all summer and he had a whole bunch of trouble understanding it. A drop table also has to include the cosign angle. When I do drop tables once I have my average FPS I run drop tables for 10 20 30 and 40 degree angles and study them carefully. He is using the same program I am which is Sierra 6 Ballistic program and can do it also but some people just don't need it you know. Heck I can hit at 1000 yds all day without any problem why do I need that. Solution to the miss is this. At 1040 with a O degree angle you have 23.1 MOA drop. When you change that to a 10 degree angle you have 22.8 MOA and if you change that to a 20 degree angle you end up with 21.5 MOA and a 30 degree angle will give you a 19.8 MOA drop. I had taught him how to use his fist at arms length to figure the cosign angle a number of times but he claimed he could not see that much difference in bullet impact and that he could just about hold dead on and still hit. Now if you understand MOA you know this isn't true. 1 MOA at 1000 yards is actually 10"s I also contend that his 4" miss over the deers back at 1000 yds was actually much more than this due to the angle as he seen the bullet his in his line of sight 4"s over the deers back but probably 30 or 40 yds behind the deer. The bullet was probably 20 some inches over the deers back. (he is still arguing this with me lol) When he shot the three times his was roughly 20 some inches over the deer rather than the 4 he thought. When he dropped him POA 1.5 MOA he was still over the deers back. I think he was getting a case of WTF about that time and he dropped his aim 1.5 MOA again and his what appeared to be just under the deer. This was too much drop between adjustments. At that distance the bullet at its peak is almost 20 feet above the line of sight and coming down at an fairly steep angle. When the bullet appeared to be 4"s over the deer it was way more than that. When he adjusted 1.5MOA down and was still just a bit over as he describes he was still more than a couple inches over the deer. But when he dropped it another 1.5 which is roughly 15"s its my guess that come awfully close to a hit but the bullet passed just under the deer and through up dirt just a bit past the deer but looked like it was just under. All this just goes to show you, you really need to watch your angles when shooting both uphill and down hill as between the optical illusions of where you think you are hitting and where you really are hitting can really make a huge difference in you hits and misses. But we all learn this the hard way. The big question is this. How thick is a deer when you look at it at a 30 degree angle between the top of its back and the bottom of its chest. I bet when the bullet is coming down from 20 some feet above the line of sight there is just enough difference that with that if you drop you shot 1.5 MOA you can put one over and one under. HE did. ;D
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Finally
Nov 14, 2011 21:05:17 GMT -5
Post by deputydon on Nov 14, 2011 21:05:17 GMT -5
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Finally
Nov 15, 2011 2:59:40 GMT -5
Post by xphunter on Nov 15, 2011 2:59:40 GMT -5
Basically, Bill's friend blew it by not having the gear or not using the gear he had that is needed to make a correction when shooting distance. Whether the angle is up or down the bullet will always strike high. At least he missed every time and didn't wound the animal. Some laser rangefinders will automatically compensate/correct for the angle. But you have to make sure when using the laser that you are prone (like you would shooting) and not standing.
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Finally
Nov 15, 2011 9:43:50 GMT -5
Post by Bill on Nov 15, 2011 9:43:50 GMT -5
The question I have in my mind is this. When a bullet is coming down from 22 feet above the line of sight, how tall is the target. If the deer as looked at directly at a 90 degree angle is say 16"s top to bottom how high is it viewed from the bullets angle. I'm thinking the target window is only about 10-12"s at the most. When he dialed down 1.5MOA which is almost 15"s he dialed down too much and shot under. All this is really hard to explain unless you have done it. Plus it is very gratifying to make a hit at that range once you have done it. Kind of like a drug, I want to do it again. ;D Your right on that Ernie. He kept saying that the .264 WM shoots really flat and for some reason didn't think of it or didn't think he needed to worry about it. The furthest he had shot an animal was around 375 and verily did much more than hold over a bit. Kind of hard to go from hold over to dial up under stress much less remember uphill or downhill shooting techniques. Plus he didn't take the tables along showing the difference. He only took the O degree table.
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Finally
Nov 15, 2011 11:20:26 GMT -5
Post by xphunter on Nov 15, 2011 11:20:26 GMT -5
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Finally
Nov 16, 2011 11:35:50 GMT -5
Post by Bill on Nov 16, 2011 11:35:50 GMT -5
Some nice stuff there. Problem is on my budget I'm pretty slow at acquiring more products to increase my range. I just sold my Leica 1200 LRF and am buying the 1600 model which also has the ARC program in it but need to wait till Christmas to buy it. Good thing about it is I sold my LRF to the guy I am hunting with this year. ;D I also need a bit better spotting scope as the one I have although good really is a PITA to use at long range and I really want a lot better one. I need one of the cell phones with the shooter program in it and a kestrel to give me up to date drops. So far I have been able to do really well out to 1000 without all those things but the proof will be in the pudding so to speak. Never know, I might not even get a chance to shoot long range. Weather man says 12"s of snow on the days I plan on hunting.
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Finally
Nov 16, 2011 15:20:50 GMT -5
Post by xphunter on Nov 16, 2011 15:20:50 GMT -5
If size is not an issue, the Vortex Razor HD with the 30 WA lens (etched glass MIL or MOA reticle) is awesome
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Finally
Nov 17, 2011 8:15:15 GMT -5
Post by Bill on Nov 17, 2011 8:15:15 GMT -5
Well wish me luck, I leave after work to hunt for the next 3 days. The season is 2 weeks long but due to work I only get to hunt for 2 full and 1 half day.
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Finally
Nov 17, 2011 8:19:56 GMT -5
Post by Jack on Nov 17, 2011 8:19:56 GMT -5
Good luck, Bill !
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Finally
Nov 17, 2011 8:57:17 GMT -5
Post by xphunter on Nov 17, 2011 8:57:17 GMT -5
Good Luck!
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bounce
Royal Member
Posts: 5,727
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Finally
Nov 17, 2011 9:51:20 GMT -5
Post by bounce on Nov 17, 2011 9:51:20 GMT -5
Don't forget to buy some good shells, for that luck!!
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Finally
Nov 17, 2011 10:08:09 GMT -5
Post by deputydon on Nov 17, 2011 10:08:09 GMT -5
GOOD LUCK !!!!
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Finally
Nov 17, 2011 10:08:25 GMT -5
Post by deputydon on Nov 17, 2011 10:08:25 GMT -5
GOOD LUCK !!!!
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