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Post by deputydon on Aug 18, 2009 16:42:04 GMT -5
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Post by jimiowa on Aug 18, 2009 16:43:47 GMT -5
There are a lot of good off the rack rifles out there.
I know of no traditional rifles using the 209 primer.
I know Red has a bias against 50 cal round ball rifles.
He also mentions long barrels being hard to clean.
That's cool for him.
But I find it odd that people for 200 yrs. did not consider a roundball insuficient for deer and often larger game???
I'm sitting here looking at a long barreled 45 cal Tennesse Rifle,
in a full Cherry stock marked "J. Dannels No1"(The maker is one of my favorite people ;D).
And don't consider it the least bit inadequate for Deer or any harder to clean.
Now for Elk & Moose, I might want to get a mite closer, but when it was what was in hand it was used for just that purpose for a couple hundred yrs.
Like Scott said, if you live in a state that allows it's use(If I remember correctly Penn does not) cap and ball will give you the most economic and easiest way to learn).
That being said I agree with others, you would be hard pressed to do better than the Lyman in a store bought rifle.
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Post by Jack on Aug 18, 2009 20:58:02 GMT -5
I know Pennsylvania requires flintlocks in their traditional ML season- or did until recently. I think PA is in the minority of states, though- most states allow caplock ML's. Obviously you'll want to check the regs of the state you're interested in hunting.
I don't know of a traditional ML that uses 209 primers for ignition- nor do I know why you'd need it. I've always used CCI #11 magnum caps, and they've worked just fine.
There may be an aftermarket gadget you can get to adapt a caplock to fire 209's, if you feel the need.
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Post by dovehunter on Aug 19, 2009 7:34:10 GMT -5
again there's my ignorance and the reason for my post. i just was useing the term cap for any of the type, but really i was wanting 209 primer type. I don't mean to sound like I am criticizing you but 209 primers are synonymous with in-lines and your initial post suggested that you didn't want an in-line.  If you want a traditional ML then get one and be satisfied with percussion caps. If you want to use 209 primers, you're pretty much going to have to get an in-line. I have never had any problems with any brand of percussion cap in either of my muzzleloaders - rifle or revolver - provided I fired off at least one cap (without a powder charge) to clean out any existing oil, etc. Personally, even if I had a 209-primed in-line gun, I would still fire off a 209 primer to clear things out, particularly if I was going to hunt with the thing. |
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Post by twomoons on Aug 19, 2009 13:49:51 GMT -5
Let's see now a 50 caliber round ball is underpowered for WHAT??? With 80 grains of FFG it will shoot clear through a buffallo at 70 yards, I know, I've done it. It will shoot through a buffalo skull and mush the brains. It will cleanlyy drop deer with one shoot out to 100 yards so... I admit if you are in the habit of shooting your deer in the leg or the butt it might not be the ticket, but a carefull hunter can kill anything in the lower 48 with it.
As to the rifle you just need to decide what type and style you prefer and then decide how much you want to spend. IMHO the Lyman Great Plains rifle is the most authentic looking and the best buy for the money. With a little tuning they will shoot as good as you can hold. I also like the Penn Hunter model of the T/C rife as the long tube and 1-66 twist are deadly with an underpowered round ball. I have one T/C Penn Hunter in right now for $275 and the bore is perfect. Used Lyman's usuall run a little more and are harder to find. Dont forget Gunbroker as sometimes there are some real buys there.
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Post by jimiowa on Aug 19, 2009 16:45:59 GMT -5
Hmm If I was looking I think I would jump all over that TC Two Moons has!!!
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Post by jimh on Aug 19, 2009 21:20:15 GMT -5
twomoons, is that a cap or flint lock gun?
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Aug 19, 2009 22:50:05 GMT -5
Why not an inline? Jim knows they are the devil ;D ;D ;D Just to clear up some things I said 1. Regarding a used rifle barrel. It doesn't matter if Jim looks at the barrel with a flashlight or not --- he doesn't know what he's looking for  All used barrels have pits in them (unless you've shot only 777 through it). 2. I don't have any thing against a long barrel, I actually meant to say I prefer it over the short barrel (especially since jim's eyes aren't getting any younger). Past 50-60 yards, the longer sight raduis is going to help a great deal. Those short barrels are only 24" It would be good 50 yards and under or to carry a second gun with you into the woods (legal here) 3. What I was getting at with cleaning a Kentuky rifle (which is the first link Bill gave us) is the fact that most are really designed to be cleaned with the stock on because it's such a pain to get the barrel off the stock. They are attached differently. Bill's second link is something totally different - that uses a simple wedge and will be easy to clean. Again, I'm not against long barrels. 4. I used to shoot deer with 50 cal balls. So did my dad and brother. You only got a complete pass through on deer about 50% of the time depending if the ball hit a rib or not. Since going to a 50 caliber bullet (and dad going to a 45caliber XTP), we've never shot a deer that didn't get a complete pass through --- probably about 15 deer. A 50 caliber ball shooting 65-80 grains (which is the ballpark for accuracy. My brother's won't hardly hit paper at 50 yards unless it was 50-55 grains) does not even begin to compare to a bullet almost twice it's weight shooting 90 grains. There's just no comparison. Disagree if you will as your milliage may be different. I'm not saying it's not powerfull enough, because it certainly is. Just don't expect the "bang, flop" you would get with a 50 cal bullet or sabot. You're going to have times where a deer is going to run 40, 50, 60, 70 yards before falling over that would of otherwise collapsed where it stood. That's fine; there's nothing wrong with that unless it's getting dark or there's a convienent holler/creek for it to fall into. ;D A bullet is just plain better though and it's almost impossible to argue otherwise (assuming you use a proper bullet). You're not going to be able to convert a sidelock to shoot a 209. That's what a "musket cap" is for --- which really don't work that well without messing around with the lockwork on your gun. The musket caps and larger (requiring a different nipple) than a standard #11 and many guns just can't quite function properly with a musket cap. Stick with a good ol #11. Get some german caps, put vasoline around the nipple, make a rain cover for it, and keep the gun under your arm. It should go off in the light rain ;D My gun is a Traditions (a second at that...because the stock is not centered and the lockwork is messed up where you must return the hammer from full cock all the way back down to the nipple. If it goes from full cock to half cock, the hammer will slip off and fire.) My gun is a what I would call frontier style, although mine is a bit more modernized with a straight butt and only has a single trigger (plastic at that).  |
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Post by jmarriott on Aug 20, 2009 6:16:46 GMT -5
I saw one yesterday that was not a traditional in-line and not a traditional cap lock either. It looked like a nice single shot rifle and it was a Lyman. It was called the Mustang breakaway. An Inline with more classic lines. It had some great looking walnut. I will be the first to admit I know nothing about B-powder. I will also admit I was tempted to buy one of these for the looks alone, it looks alot better in person than in the pictures here. www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/muzzle-loaders/mustang-209.phpFrom what I have seen in the field in Indiana. I would be more trusting in an In-line out to 150-200 yards than a 54 cal round ball. Nothing against the ball myself but a nice 10 point at 150 is toast with my buddies Omega muzzy everytime. |
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bounce
Royal Member
Posts: 5,727
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Post by bounce on Aug 20, 2009 10:20:43 GMT -5
Not going to waist my time, it's just what you need on kevilar MO deer.
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Post by jmarriott on Aug 20, 2009 10:49:50 GMT -5
Q: Is the stock on the Mustang real wood?
A: The Mustang has a hardwood stock covered with an "Ultra Grain" wood finish.
I guess it fooled me I was wondering how it looked so good at the price he paid.
maybe it's not such a good idea.
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Aug 20, 2009 21:09:24 GMT -5
I'd buy the Traditions Pursuit for $170 before I paid 300 for the Mustang.
And weren't there some kind of issues with that gun when it first came out?
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Post by jimiowa on Aug 20, 2009 22:30:12 GMT -5
Think I've mentioned this before? If you are going to look at a used muzzleloader there is a cheap & easy way to do it.
Go to the Mart or tackle shop and get the refill lamps for a lighted bobber(Thill Brand I think?) light that up and drop it down the barrel and you can see pretty good!
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Aug 20, 2009 23:28:16 GMT -5
Just take a flathead screwdriver and flashlight. Unscrew the screw on the side of the barrel, turn the light on and press it up against the hole, and then look down the muzzle. I would request the owner of the gun to get a jag with cloth/paper towell and clean out any bore butter that might hide the view. Minor pits are normal. What is not normal is a gouge of rust and corosion that looks 1/8" long or more. There would probably be more than one spot like that. There's no way I'd buy it if seeing that. There might be an exception if the price is super super cheap (like 100 bucks) and the model is still being made where you could get another barrel if you had to.  |
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Post by deputydon on Aug 21, 2009 7:00:43 GMT -5
Think I've mentioned this before? If you are going to look at a used muzzleloader there is a cheap & easy way to do it. Go to the Mart or tackle shop and get the refill lamps for a lighted bobber(Thill Brand I think?) light that up and drop it down the barrel and you can see pretty good! Thanx, thats a good idea!!! |
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If you want a traditional ML then get one and be satisfied with percussion caps. If you want to use 209 primers, you're pretty much going to have to get an in-line. I have never had any problems with any brand of percussion cap in either of my muzzleloaders - rifle or revolver - provided I fired off at least one cap (without a powder charge) to clean out any existing oil, etc. Personally, even if I had a 209-primed in-line gun, I would still fire off a 209 primer to clear things out, particularly if I was going to hunt with the thing.
