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Post by 340wby on Apr 12, 2008 20:24:23 GMT -5
"I would like to read more posts about how to sneek through the dark timber when you know they are in there somewhere but you don't know exactly where"
"how in $%% do I find ELK, the areas huge and they seem to be very hard to find"
I POSTED SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR IN A REQUEST A YEAR OR SO BACK, THINKING IT WOULD HELP THE NEWER GUYS......I got very few replies or useful info in responce.....but Ill try to give some pointers or bits of info that might be useful
(1) get out your topo maps well before the season and try to find the least accessable areas, furthest from roads, and camp sites, that still have both water and expansive brush and timber
(2) realize that on opening day the areas near roads and camp sites (within a mile or so depending on the terrain features)will generally be long ago vacated by the ELK. about 80% of the areas easily accessed will be devoid of elk
(3)look for lands/fences posted as PRIVATE PROPERTY that limit general access to areas, in many cases gates accross roads block vehical access, but a walk accrossed BLM or NATIONAL FOREST land will give access to seldom hunted areas.
(4) yes youll need to get a decent GPS to validate your true location and learn to read map boundries carefully and LOCAL COUNTY BOUNDRY MAPS giving detailed property borders, will help.
(5)learn to USE the movement of the majority of casual hunters movements within a mile or two of those roads and camp sites, to push the majority of the game and to concentrate the game in those areas.
HUNT FROM DAWN TILL DARK, STAY ALERT, YOUR CHANCES DECREASE DRAMATICALLY SITTING AROUND CAMP
(6)game will generally take the lesser steep slopes and stay near or into the edge of cover, game like hunters will generally avoid extremely steep areas UNLESS PUSHED,but they need both water and food plus cover, any area that does not have those is LESS likely to hold game.
(7)north and east facing slopes GENERALLY hold more food plants and cover and SOUTH AND WEST facing slopes less, you can normally see what moves on the OPPOSITE slope in a narrow canyon better than your own side,use that info!
(8) areas extensively covered with juniper, aspens and oak brush generally produce better results than larger conifers , open grass or sage once hunting starts to apply pressure on the ELK.
(9) a $20 bill slipped into several local ranchers hands in exchange for a brief few questions on the local herds is usually money well spent, ESPECIALLY if you can do it a week or so prior to the season
(10) talk to the local biologist several times well before the season opens
(11) GLASS from SHADED areas under trees limbs or without being high lighted on a ridge crest and wear dull grey/browns/greens or better yet camo in dull grey/browns/greens. watch the wind dirrection,mark your maps and ask the local game department for info.USE a wide brim hat, shading your face and eyes helps
(12) buy groceries/ supplies/gas locally and be friendly to the clerks, ask where the better areas are and WHAT AREAS ARE NOT WORTH HUNTING
(13)walking rail road right of ways can occasionally allow access to national forest or BLM areas beyond private land boundries
(14)learn the games anatomy and to shoot off hand out to at least 75-100 yards both fast and accurately enought to hit a 6" paper plate within a few seconds, game seldom stands around like those silly calender pictures taken in national parks, youll need to be effective at shooting slow walking targets at times with-in a few seconds, take advantage of ALL oppertunities instantly when they occure, they seldom last for more than seconds, this IS why heavier caliber ELK rifles have an advantage, (you can,t always get ideal shot angles on the vitals)Im not advocating texas heart shots but having the ability to place a shot near the last rear rib on the near side and rake thru to exit the far shoulder RELIEABLY a nice option the heavier calibers are better at.
(15) rim rock, steep river banks,narrow canyons,fire crew access roads, fences and rail road right of ways can influeance the way game routes its travels thru an area you can use that info,find the best locations where a rifleman can can control access thru an area, power line right of ways can be a great way to allow a rifleman to deny game crossing thru an area un-detected
(16)
hunting with a partner or partners and acting like a team where the movements of one member may push game too the others,and scouting by the others aids your chances is smart. if you place one member 3/4 way up a slope and one 1/4 of the way up your chance of spotting game movements for both increases
(17) don,t get to concerned with absolute accuracy, a guy that can shoot and hit a 4" plate consistantly at 100 yards in under 4 seconds will kill plenty of elk but a guy that can shoot 1/2" groups but takes a minute to get ready will have far fewer chances
(18) learn to use a cow elk call it will occasionally help you get in closer before the herd spooks, and allow you to cover for some noise made, Ive even had several ELK come on a run when I was just calling as I slowly still hunted thick aspens
(19) when you stop be in the shade and hopefully against a tree stump, behind a fallen tree or under conifer branches or near brush,sit & glass,don,t stand, your harder to detect that way.
(20) pay attention to whats going on well out on the edges of your visual range, use binoculars,you can cover far more ground with vision, carefully glassing, than walking thru it,Ive seen ELK stare out at us from timber from over 200 yards away,on more than one occasion as we slowly walked logging roads, don,t talk, the human voice carries hundreds of yards and spooks game, try to stay in the edges of brush, when moving, looking out,unscreened movement and standing in the open makes you very easy to spot/avoid/detect
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Post by 340wby on Apr 14, 2008 7:43:16 GMT -5
TIPS FROM OTHER SOURCES
You have to learn to think like an elk. Pretend that you are an elk and you know that hunters are trying to kill you. Then go to the places and do the things that you need to do to avoid getting killed. That's how you find elk.
Once you've done all that, then you can employ these strategies.
Rule#1: Be safe with your rifle. Assume that any firearm is loaded unless the breech is open and you can see that it's empty. Always point the muzzle in a safe direction and never point your rifle at anything unless you intend to shoot it. Don't rely on the safety. Carry your rifle with the chamber empty and the safety on. Don't chamber a round until you spot a target. Never shoot at a target unless you are sure what it is, sure you can hit it and sure of what's behind it.
Rule #2: Be proficient with your rifle. Always make a clean, quick, humane kill. In order to do this you must be proficient with your rifle. No matter how good you have been in the past, you need to practice several times each summer to ensure that you are current. Don't just sight in your rifle. You must practice to ensure that your rhythm is smooth and habitual and you can hit what you aim at. Practice at 200 yards and 300 yards so that you can determine in the field, if you should take that shot. Also, get off the bench and practice in the prone position resting your rifle on a daypack and also in the sitting position. There never seems to be a bench rest in the field just where you want it.
Guideline #1: Be in good shape. Altitude sickness is a real concern in the mountains. You need to be in good cardio/vascular condition to deal with it. Also, everyone must do their share and you can't do that if you can't hike the hills, and haul out your share of the game, collect firewood, carry water, setup & break down camp, etc. If you are in bad physical condition, then you will be miserable and you will not enjoy the adventure. It's really endurance breathing that you need to develop before you arrive at high elevation. Bicycling, climbing stairs, swimming and high altitude hiking are excellent exercises for this purpose. Also drink lots of liquids in order to minimize the effects of dehydration and Acute Mountain Sickness. By the way, alcohol and caffeine are not good liquids to drinks because they are diuretics and you will end up even more dehydrated.
Guideline #2: Scout, Scout, Scout. You need to know your hunting area like your back yard. Take several camping/hiking trips and several backpack trips into your hunting area each summer. Know where their winter range is, where their summer range is and where the migration routes are that connect the two. Know where the game trails are concentrated crossing saddles on ridges, where the bedding areas are, where the water holes are, where the hideouts are. Take a couple of long hikes where you expect to find game, just before the season opens.
Buy US Forest Service maps, USGS maps, county maps and BLM maps of your area. These maps contain different information. Copy this information onto the USGS maps. You can only reasonably hunt the area on one USGS 7.5' map. But as luck would have it, the best hunting area is usually where several maps come together. Tape the maps together. Memorize your map. Update it with field data from your scouting trips. You now have a map containing information in a way that no one else has.
Guideline #3: Hunt where the elk are: Seventy-five percent (75%) of the elk live in twenty-five percent (25%) of the available habitat. You can waste a lot of time hunting unproductively in an area where there is always some thin sign but never enough sign to indicate the presence of a large herd. Sure there’s the off chance that by pure dumb luck you might encounter a lonesome elk and ever year someone gets lucky and fills their tag that way. But your best probability of success will be in the vicinity of the large herds. You scouting goal is to discover where that 25% hotbed is located. When you find that area it’s hard to miss. It will stink with elk musk and urine, there will be heavily used game trails in every direction, the grass will be cropped short, there will be lots fresh elk droppings and you can hear elk scurrying away just beyond in the trees.
Guideline #4: Hunt the right elevation for the migration: Elk accomplish an annual migration, spending the summer at higher elevation and spending the winter in some sheltered place, usually at lower elevation. In Colorado's 1st and 2nd rifle season, most elk will be found at higher elevations in mixed aspen/evergreen groves, with lots of grass and forbs for food. They can travel a long way for water. Look for them to start moving down their migration routes in the 3rd season.
Elk will wait as long as they can before being forced to migrate by bad weather. They will go back up if it warms. So if weather in the 3rd season is warm and dry, then look for them up high. Mule deer will migrate sooner and faster than elk. One day of really bad weather and deep snow, will result in lots of deer in the sage where the day before there wasn't an animal to be found. Deer usually stay down once they have migrated. In the late seasons elk can often be found in rancher’s pastures.
When the weather is warm, there will always be a few elk spread out throughout their entire range. So the population density (elk/square mile) is less dense and your chance of bumping into an elk is low. I hunt the 3rd rifle season and hope for heavy snow and bad weather to drive them out of the high country. They will concentrate in the foothills, at the bottom of the snow line. Since they are concentrated, the population density is higher and your chance of seeing an elk is improved.
Guideline #5: Use hunting pressure to your advantage. I hunt an area on opening morning where there is good vehicle access and lots of other hunters. I hunt in the places where I think the animals will run to avoid the opening day hunters. Most hunters will stay within a mile or so of a road. A few others will horse pack in five miles, usually more. So it's good to get back in 2 or 3 miles before the sun comes up and hunt the in-between areas.
Guideline #6: Hunt bedding areas at dawn. Elk like to bed down in isolated, gently sloping groves of mixed aspen/evergreens with lots of grass and forbs for food. They can travel a long way for water. Isolated means someplace where it’s difficult for people to access. Find several places like this when you go scouting. Hike in the dark to arrive at an overlook before the sun comes up and wait to see what comes out of the grove.
Guideline #7: Hunt the ridges at midday. Setup overlooking a saddle on a ridge where game trails are concentrated and wait to see what walks by. This takes lots of patience and works best if you have somebody stealth hunting through the dark timber to get the animals moving.
Guideline #8: Hunt the water holes in the afternoon. Find some isolated water source, maybe the highest place where a creek first starts coming out of the ground. Setup concealed from view, with a good field of fire 100 to 200 yards away, at least 3 hours before sunset, and wait to see what comes to drink. Wait until the very last shooting light is gone before going back to camp. I have field dressed a lot of animals in the dark using a flashlight.
Guideline #9: Hunt the hideouts late in the season. Elk know that someone is trying to kill them as soon as the first shot is fired. So they run and hide in the most inaccessible terrain around. Find some cozy little pocket surrounded by the meanest, nastiest country around; a place where it looks like there's no way that an elk could get in there; a place where you would hate to get an animal down because you would hate to have to haul him out. That's where the elk will be and that's where you should be (and where I will be) late in the season.
Guideline #10: Be persistent. You can't catch fish unless you have your bait in the water and you can't find an elk unless you are in the field looking for them. They're not going to walk up and surrender themselves to you. You have to find them. That's why they call it hunting and not killing. Many hunters give up after a couple of unsuccessful days and go home. Be prepared to stay the entire length of the season and to endure whatever fatigue and weather, you may encounter. Hunt an area for several days and if you don't find anything promising, then try a different strategy or different area, but don't give up.
Guideline #11: Be patient. Human beings are noisy, stinky creatures. Our dominant sense is our vision. The elk's best senses are their smell and hearing. Their vision is motion sensitive and they can't see colors. Many young hunters spend lots of time hiking and covering a lot of ground and wonder why they never see any animals. You should spend most of your time sitting quietly and watching. You should hike slowly and quietly and most of your hiking should be in the dark.
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Gila
Grand Member
and a Vernier sight. It's marked up to twelve-hundred yards. This one shoots a mite further.
Posts: 622
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Post by Gila on Apr 14, 2008 9:21:10 GMT -5
Annual migrations do not occur throughout all of the elk's range. Elk in the southern portions of their ranges will stay in the same general area all year. You will find the same herds in that same general area all year in the central and southern parts of New Mexico and Arizona.
The bulls will form bachelor herds and separate themselves from the cows and then isolate themselves in a remote area prior to shedding their antlers each year and will stay together during the summer months, until their new antlers are hard and the rut begins. They will then leave their bachelor group in search of a harem. During the time when they are rubbing their antlers and during the time they stay together in bachelor groups, they continuously will test each other and push each other around and will generally form a "pecking order" these same bulls will generally not fight over cows later on as they already know which bulls are stronger within their group. It's when a bull from a different bachelor group attempts to get a cow from another bull that they will have tremendous fights that can actually end in death. This not as uncommon as you may think but happens on a regular basis between bulls of similar size.
In areas where they have a summer range and a winter range, the bulls will not return to their summer hide out until they form bachelor groups once again .... but... in the southern portions of their habitat in New Mexico and Arizona, their summer hiding places is exactly where they will go many times once the shooting starts. These areas are hidden places where the bulls feel safe. They may even bring some of their cows with them when they return but generally they will not. Many of you know that Arizona and New Mexico produces huge bulls on a regular basis for many people. This is one of the reasons. Some of us know where that knowing where summer hiding spot is knowing where they will be once the shooting starts. All those folks that are out there scouting prior to the season opening will know where the elk (were) but not where they (are).
Another really important thing to remember is that elk travel great distances and they do it fast. DO NOT camp where the elk are. The majority of elk hunters are fairly new to elk hunting and will pitch camp at the edges of meadows in the general vicinity of the elk. The elk feed in those meadows until you camp in their dining room. They then move to a different area. I have heard it many, many times every year.. "If the season has started a day before it opened, I could have killed several bulls because they were right there at camp". Yea, that was because the fools camped in the middle of the elk. Then the elk moved out of that area and everyone that had scouted and knew those elk were there, were screwed because of the one fool. Problem is there are a huge number of those fools during an elk hunt and they have no idea of their impact on the movements of the animals.
Most of the information given above would be specific to particular areas within the ranges of elk and would be correct for a large amount of the elk's habitat, but different areas have different secrets that must be learned to be successful. In a large percentage of the areas where I live and hunt for elk, the only way to see the elk or get a shot is across the canyons so a spotting scope and long range rifles are pretty much needed if you expect to be successful. Some of the meadows that the elk will feed into during the early morning hours or before dark will be a mile across or even larger also dictating long-range cartridges. What works in some areas will not work in other areas.
Sitting will be a good thing to do if you are hunting in an area where the animals will be forced to use that particular place for movements. In larger expanses of habitat, they will likely not return to the same place twice once the shooting starts and so sitting will not be too productive for the most part unless it's to sit and glass with a good spotting scope.
Always remember, the particular area will dictate your hunting methods and they will be extremely different form one area to another or from one time to another.
If all else fails, "luck" can make you or break you.
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Post by 340wby on Apr 17, 2008 10:00:01 GMT -5
 this looks far more like where I hunt 90% of the time, (canyon country like this, or similar but smaller side canyons) heres an photo of a small bit OF DEEP CREEK  |
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Post by 340wby on May 28, 2008 8:59:16 GMT -5
I was asked by a young friend, whos looking to go on his first ELK hunt.... "if your starting over, and wanted a new ELK RIFLE, what would you buy and why?" now Ive got a wide sellection currently so thats hardly a problem, but If I was starting over AS A BRAND NEW ELK HUNTER,Id be very tempted to sellect a synthetic stocked BAR in 30/06 sprg ,300 win or 338 win mag caliber, and IM 90% sure the 338 win would get the nod, personally! but ID strongly suggest the 30/06 sprg for a new guy! I don,t like many bolt guns handling charicteristics, I prefer a nice falling block single shot for both looks and handling,personally , but strictly as a TOOL to kill ELK, the BAR has some advantages. the longer I hunt ELK the more Ive been convinced that a fast and accurately placed shot, the guns intrinsic speed in handling and confidence in your rifle far out weight the small advantage in accuracy the bolt guns provide, and while I have zero problem using a falling block single shot, a semi auto tends to give the newer guys a bit of confidence and the action soaks up a good percentage of the felt recoil. www.browning.com/products/catalog...amp;type_id=008WHY? well as a NEW HUNTER Id want a fast handling accurate rifle that would provide a solid hit potential and the ability to provide a fast back-up shot. I will be the first guy to tell you IVE not needed a second shot in many years but having that option instantly on tap is a good thing in my opinion, ESPECIALLY for a newer ELK hunter. Ive hunted with MY 338 BAR,and MY 30/06 sprg and while they are not my favorite rifles they have been extremely effective. now I hear the screaming already! Im not promoting the SPRAY AND PRAY mentality, but I usually start the new guys off with a slide action, a lever action or a semi-auto and Ive found the semi-auto is by far the best because theres nothing to distract the new guys, theres nothing but release the safety, aim and fire....need a second shot, you don,t do a darn thing but regain the sight picture and sqeeze off the next shot, and thats a big advantage when your hearts beating so fast you can hear it, and your minds running wild, as your shooting your first few ELK.! BTW Ive also owned a few remington semi-autos, THERES ZERO COMPARISON, the BROWNING BAR shoots far tighter groups and with decent ammo, and a clean gun, I simply don,t see jams or mis-feeds etc. If you want a decent remington get the 7600 slide action in 30/06 or better yet 35 whelen,THOSE are a good value but Ive personally had nothing but minor problems and crappy accuracy from the three remington semi-autos Ive owned and since sold |
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Post by Purebred Redneck on May 28, 2008 10:07:07 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd say the synthetic BAR in a 338 would be about perfect assuming it cycles when it's half frozen.
Given the size of the vitals on something the size of an elk, you can still shoot 350 - 400 yards.
I hear decent things about the semi-auto remingtons provided you clean it well after 15-20 shots.
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Post by 340wby on May 28, 2008 15:58:24 GMT -5
"I'd say the synthetic BAR in a 338 would be about perfect assuming it cycles when it's half frozen."
I know my 338 BAR cycles fine at between 30F and minus -10F but then I keep in clean and lightly oiled with synthetic oil, and don,t alow it to get moisture in the action and I cycle the action and snap the trigger several times while its empty before loading it almost every time I load it
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Post by 340wby on May 29, 2008 9:43:59 GMT -5
the weight and action of the BAR soaks up a huge amount of recoil, thats a big plus for new shooters, the fact that theres nothing to do but carefully control your breathing and re aquire the correct sight picture ,for a second shot if its ever needed is also a big plus for the newer guys. yes theres no question theres lighter weight rifles, but the differance in weight betwen a semi auto bar and most bolt actions has never been in my opinion nearly the handicap that some guys make it out to be, at 7 3/4lbs a 338 bar is hardly a anchor off a cruise ship a remington titainum rifle is only 1.5 lbs less, thats significantly less but the differance will hardly be critical, the rifle Ive used for 39 years , weights a bit more at almost 9.5 lbs with a scope and closer to 10.5 with a sling,bipod,and ammo sleave on the butt, but its never caused me to not hunt some of the worst slopes, and remote canyons www.weatherby.com/products/guns.asp?prd=Rifles&prd_sub_type=1&prod_code=FBM257WR6Owww.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_700/model_700_alaskan_Ti.aspwww.browning.com/products/catalog...;item=031008131The way I look at it is, if your sport regularly requires hauling 90 lbs back packs full of elk meat out of some remote canyon thats 5 miles from a dirt service road or walking into that canyon carring 30-40 lbs of supplies and spending days living out of that back pack a extra pound or two of rifle weights hardly going to be the straw that breaks the camels back, but having a dependable tool might be. I like my BARs and would hunt with them far more frequently except I stupidly purchased the bright steel and shinny wood version in the 1980s, If I could get synthetic stocks and a bead blasted finnish dirt cheap they would be used far more often. |
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