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Post by 340wby on Feb 1, 2008 21:23:06 GMT -5
I got asked if a 7mm BAR, that a guy used for deer hunting would be OK for elk hunting , or should he upgrade to a 7mm BOLT GUN,300 mag or 338 mag, in a synthetic bolt action ? NOW Ive hunted ELK for 38 years, mostly in WY, and CO. heres what I told him. since youve got a very good rifle (BAR) and the 7mm rem is certainly able to kill ELK effectively , I see no reason to buy a second 7mm rem, the 300 mags are louder and kick more but with premium bullets in both calibers Ive never seen a huge differance in killing power between the 7mm and 30 cal mags,yes the 300 has a small, advantage, but given decent hits either caliber kills well. If you want something with noticably more punch the 250 grain bullets in the 338 win mag will provide that, but at the cost of notiably more recoil, and if your thinking of dropping down to the 180-210 grain bullets in the 338 mag you may as well stay with premium bullets in the 7mm mag as you won,t get the full advantage of the larger caliber can provide, with its larger cross setional area after expansion untill you use the larger and heavier bullets with similar sectional density to the 7mm bullets,you would use on ELK, the 250 grain and heavier premium bullets in the 338 do give you a deeper penetrating bullet that causes a larger wound chanel, I used to hunt ELK with a 30/06 and if theres any differance in performance on elk between a 160-175 grain in a 7mm rem mag, and a 180-190 grain 30 cal from a 30/06 its so minor Ive never noticed it, in the field. but the 250 grain 338 slugs DO HIT noticably harder, notice I didn,t say they KILL BETTER only that they seem to impress the game on impact too a far greater extent,and are more likely in my experiance to have exit wounds on raking angles where max penetration is required, but its CORRECT shot placement and decent bullet construction,more than caliber or bullet weight that kills. you don,t need a new rifle, but If you want one a 338 win mag having an increased power level makes more sence too me than duplicating a current rifles power level. Ive used both a 338 win and a 340wby for over 30 years to hunt ELK, and they are excellent tools designed for the job, but your current 7mm mag will get the job done if you can shoot well. www.bowhunting.net/NAspecies/elk2.htmlBTW MY 338 is a BAR and recoil is easily managed, and not near the recoil levels of my 340 wby synthetic bolt actions. the 340 wby bolt gun shoots flatter but both the 338 and 340 wby kill very effectively www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=002B&cat_id=031&type_id=001we have all heard the old advice that its NOT what you hit them with but WHERE you hit them, and thats PARTLY TRUE but the angles and ranges that you can reasonably expect to drive a bullet thru the vitals DOES vary with the caliber, bullet weight ,bullet construction and range and amount and type of non-vital tissue the bullet must travel thru before reaching the vitals
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Post by WyoStillhunter on Feb 2, 2008 0:07:40 GMT -5
My answer to that question is, "No, not if you can accurately shoot the 7mm BAR you already have."
I've killed elk with .280 Rem. (one 5X5), 30-06 (several cows), .444 Marlin (one cow, one raghorn), and .35 Whelen (one spike, one 4X5 and some cows). I wouldn't give you a nickle's difference between them for effectiveness on eatin' size elk at ranges under 200 yards.
I cannot comment on what some would call trophy-class bulls. Maybe some day I'll have a crack at one, maybe not. I'm quite satisfied with trophy meat rather than trophy antlers.
In the years(?) I have left to hunt elk I will use the .35 Whelen with the .444 Marlin on standby for really nasty weather conditions.
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Post by deputydon on Feb 2, 2008 8:38:53 GMT -5
While I only hunted elk for ten years back in the 80's in Colo. and once in Wy (a 6X6) . This was before the elk population explosion. And we hunted hard just to see elk. I shot both cows and bulls. I used the same gun I deer hunted with and had practiced with for years. I was comfortable with the gun. I felt it was an extension of me, and I had confidence in it. While some people might have thought I was under-gunned they forgot to tell me and the dead elk that...
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Feb 2, 2008 12:19:08 GMT -5
I guess the first question is - how dependable is his BAR? Wouldn't do much good if cold weather gave it accuracy and cycling problems. 70 degrees and 0 degrees makes a big difference in a lot of semi-autos. If it's dependable, then I certainly would not get another 7mag.
Secondly, as WYO said, how big are the elk? Is he going to shoot the first cow he sees? Is he going to shoot the first male elk? Is he going to hold off. We're talking about a couple hundred pounds difference.
Finally, can he afford another rifle AND how many times in the future will he do this?
If he's going to hunt elk more often, I would certainly get a 338. But is it worth 1000 dollars for a new rifle and scope for a one time thing? --- probably not, especially if he doesn't plan on hunting any other game of similar size.
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Post by 340wby on Feb 2, 2008 12:46:25 GMT -5
"I guess the first question is - how dependable is his BAR? "
with the correctly sized and handloaded ammo, decent magazines and a CLEAN properly lubed rifle the SEVERAL BARs I own perform flawlessly, and Ive used them well below 0F degrees and at 70F, In fact I can,t remember the last malfunction, if your having a problem look too the ammo and cleaning the rifle properly as the probable cause. some oils FREEZE and attract dirt, you don,t need to slather oil everywhere, a fine mist will do fine and look into the type of lubericant used.
BTW I used to own two remington 742 rifles, and a 7400 they were HORRIABLE, not nearly as accurate as the BARs and they jammed on occasion all my BARS will keep under a 1.3" 3 shot group off the bench at 100 yards and my 270 win bar will easily hold underr an inch for five shot groups, with 150 grain speers over 57 grains of H4831 and a 215 fed primer, the BEST any of the remingtons ever did was 2.2-2.4"" groups
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Post by deputydon on Feb 2, 2008 16:07:42 GMT -5
That reminds me... It used to be that after Elk season if you looked in the classified add in Denver's papers as well as Omaha, Sioux Falls, and some of the other metro area's you could always find good bargins on "Elk" guns that one timers or rookies had that couldn't figure out why their "bore sighted" rifles couldn't hit anything!!! So they would sell them cheap. Does this still happen ?
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Post by 340wby on Feb 3, 2008 11:05:25 GMT -5
fast and light weight of heavier and stronger bullets?, theres two ways to approach the problem, go for destoying the lungs with a fast expanding bullet or drive thru to the vitals youll hear it all the time,.... "most of the time the heavier is going to put the animal down faster." "My heavy bullet loads, unless hitting CNS or the right bone structure, almost always have animals run.." "Lighter faster bullets usually put them down quickest," ITs been my experiance that its the shot placement, bullet path and bullet construction that determines which views correct, the heavier slower expanding bullets penetrate deeper and are far more consistant in the results,and exit wounds, but it takes nearly exact shot placement on the heart/liver/lungs (or all three) and a good knowledge of anatomy so that after passing thru those deliberately sellecting shot angles that bust the major bones like the off side shoulder to have them put game down fast. if you punch thru just lung tissue with your shot, the faster expanding bullet tends to get faster results, my 270 win loaded with 150 gr soft points puts deer/elk down faster with lung shots than my 340 wby loaded with 250 grain soft points if only the lungs are hit, but target the the vitals and try to bust major bones as the bullet exits and its a totally differant deal where the 340 wins. naturally your shot angle doesn,t always allow placeing a shot like that, but a shot that nearly clips the near side leg and busts the off side leg, or busts both at about 1/3 up from the lower body line, will bring quick results, as will a centered shot under the neck at about 1/3 up from the lower body line,if the games dirrectly faceing you.so will a spine/shoulder shot exiting low in the off side leg if your up well above the ELK/deer on a ridge above the traget, its knowing the anatomy thats critical, again Id point out, we have all heard the old advice that its NOT what you hit them with but WHERE you hit them, and thats PARTLY TRUE but the angles and ranges that you can reasonably expect to drive a bullet thru the vitals DOES vary with the caliber, bullet weight ,bullet construction and range and amount and type of non-vital tissue the bullet must travel thru before reaching the vitals but in all cases destroying the vitals and busting up the skeletal structure as the bullet exits is prudent if fast kills are required. BTW thats why Ive always prefered hunting the steeper and thicker areas because exact shot placement usually requires getting into under 250 yards and hopefully much closer and shooting slowly moving or standing ELK. keep in mind the fast expending bullets that work so well on broadside lung shots probably won,t work as well on raking angles, or busting shoulders. Ive never been overly concerned if the ELK doesn,t instantly fall but I sure want to see a MARKED reaction to the bullet impact when they get hit, have exit wounds and know a single well placed hits fatal
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Gila
Grand Member
and a Vernier sight. It's marked up to twelve-hundred yards. This one shoots a mite further.
Posts: 622
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Post by Gila on Feb 4, 2008 9:44:40 GMT -5
My opnion... you don't want my opinion... Everyone knows my opinion on using anything less than a .30 Cal. on a big Bull Elk.. now I didn't say a cow or little bull either.. Man I get so tired of people tryint to convince each other a .28 Cal. is big enough to do the job.. maybe in a game park where you can pick you shot, but not in the real world.. Oh, I was an outfitter and guided hunts for a good many years. Saw a lot of animals shot with a variety of weapons. Sure you can kill an elk with a .22 if you're close enough and place the bullet just right but that doesn't make it an Elk cartridge.. end of story... Your favorite hitetail cartridge isn't the best Elk cartridge... plain and simple.. I'm through..
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Post by 340wby on Feb 4, 2008 12:40:48 GMT -5
my favorite ELK hunting rifles and most used calibers FOR ELK HUNTING are 35 whelen,340 wby and 375 H&H,... I also feel that your better off with at least 225 grains of bullet and 33-38 caliber on the larger ELK, but I have killed ELK with a 270 win and seen even a 100 grain 257 roberts Kill a bull ELK. but Id also point out that delivering a shot that proves to be fatal over some time,and breaking down an elk, and destroying the vitals quickly are two differant things , but its shot placement and quality bullets that have more effect than caliber alone. both experiance and pure physics say that you can do more damage with a 250-300 grain 33-38 caliber bullet than you can with a 25-28 caliber bullet in the 130-175 weight range exspecially when the velocitys and bullet construction are somewhat similar and experiance tends to show the larger and heavier bullets penetrate deeper and exit more often
I sure would not feel totally under equiped with a 7mm mag or even a 280 rem, but Id prefer a 35 whelen or 340 wby simply because I can and do shoot them very well, and IM used to having that extra bit of thump on impact ID also point out that IVE seen far more problems with bullet failures when bullets are pushed to over 3000-3100 fps than when bullets launch at the slightly slower 2500-2800fps range and that STANDARD cup/core bullets with under about a 240 sectional density don,t tend to penetrate well in some cases BTW I own a couple 300 mags, wby and win, they have the advantage of extremely flat trajectory and decent bullet weight for caliober but Ive had a few bullet failures with the 30 mags and since I own and like the heavier calibers more they get less use. (yes IM aware the bullet sellect could have been at fault) and that doesn,t make MY CHOICE in elk hunting equipment necessarily IDEAL for the way or AREA YOU HUNT or better than your choice in equipment, or necessarily bad for YOUR area either
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Gila
Grand Member
and a Vernier sight. It's marked up to twelve-hundred yards. This one shoots a mite further.
Posts: 622
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Post by Gila on Feb 6, 2008 10:40:27 GMT -5
Actually, some of the heavier .338 bullets are designed for thicker skinned animals and don't expand well on Elk. Seems the 225g bullets seem to work best from my eperieces. A 225g .338 bullet will do a fantastic job and will drop the bull like he was hit in the head by lightening. I didn't and wouldn't suggest a .30 cal for elk hunting and I feel the .30 cals. should be considered bare minimim. I've shot elk with a .270 as well as various .30 cals but a .338 is not only better, but a LOT better and I will never again go out hunting for elk with anything less. As far as the 7mm mags. go, I have een more elk wounded and lost that were shot with the 7mms than everything else combined I think. The reason is that the majority of occasional elk hunters anen's that sharp when it comes to cartridges. For some strange reason, most think a 7mm mag. is better suitable for elk than a .30-06 spg. which is absolute B.S.. Most of these people don't even have an idea that 7mm is only a .28 cal. The word Magnum has them sold on the idea. A big bul elk deserves better than to be shot with these small calibre cartridges in my opinion. For some strange reason people that have had reasonably little experience hunting elk and don't live in elk country want to suggest using smaller cartridges to use for elk. We see that in the magazine articles written by someone that has made maybe five elk hunts or less in their entire life and consider themselves to be some sort of expert. B.S.... Some of us have been around countless numbers of elk that have been shot with all sorts of cartridges and bullet combinations. The 7mms are poor choices and if forced to use one, I wouldn't even think of any bullet except the 175g Nosler Partition. Your .340 Wby is a fine choice as is the good ol .338 Win. mag. little difference between the two actually in real terms. There are some other great .338s out there that are even just a touch better. The .338 RUM is a great cartridge as well as my .338 Imperial which is basically just only a tad larger in capacity than the .338 RUM. all of these would be considered pretty much perfect. I would have no problem hunting elk with my .375 H&H and also wouldn't consider it overkill at all. In the areas where I hunt, the .375 H&H would fall a tad short on the normal shooting distance, so I feel that my .338 Imperial Mag. is a much better choice.
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bounce
Royal Member
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Post by bounce on Feb 6, 2008 18:11:12 GMT -5
DD I do not know if bore sighting and missing is the reasion city folk guys sell after a hunt as they offten do it with many of the toys they play with. They do it with shotguns, motorcycles. wave runners, etc. They make big monthly checks, go have an experance for the seasion, sell and on the their next dream. I'm willing to bet they are also not conservitive when they vote ether.
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Feb 6, 2008 19:23:23 GMT -5
I see two big problems
1. Marketing - you go to the bass pro, cabelas, etc...or even walmart and you look at a box of 270 Winchester shells (let's say). They have two kind a. a deer on the box b. a elk on the box Obvouisly if there is an elk on the box, it must do a good job.
2. Magazines - you flip to the question and answer section and you see a novice ask a question to an expert. "I have a 270 and plan on going on my first elk hunt in the fall. Is this a good rifle choice?" And you ALWAYS here the same generic responce - "bullet selection and shotplacement with such and such caliber will quickly and cleanly kill". As Gila said, you really have to take gun writers with a grain of salt because they ussually only pretend to know what they are talking about.
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Post by Bill on Feb 8, 2008 9:03:14 GMT -5
Problem with the gun writers is not that their answer is wrong Red. The problem is that they didn't follow through with their answer and give a bullet load combo that WILL work in the .270. There are a lot of Elk killed each year with the .270 and a very good reason for it. The guys shooting the .270 are seldom afraid of their rifles, but give them a .338 or .340 and if their not shooters, the first thing you know they are jerking their heads up at the shot trying to stay away from the scope and missing the mark by a foot. A while back I had a lady sell her rifle. A Win 94 in .25-35. She had used this gun to take an elk every year since she had bought the gun in the 30's. She was 90 something when she sold it and said she had hunted enough. Said it was too much work for her anymore. Her and her husband were moving to town. She also had taken an Elk and a deer each year since she had bought the gun and never had one get away from her. Her grandson came in the next day and bought the gun as he didn't know she was getting rid of it. ;D He filled in the rest of the story. He said that she never needed more than one shot and always neck shot her Elk not wanting to ruin any meat. Very seldom did the Elk make it more than 25 yds after being shot and very seldom did she ever shoot more than 35 yds. Never used a scope either for that matter. So what I find from talking to a huge number of Elk hunters each year are this. Its not the tool you use its how you use it. The ranchers that live up in that country laugh at the flat landers that come up there to hunt elk with their big guns and the flat landers laugh at the locals for using their .30-30's and .25-35's and such for using pea shooters. Of course there are exceptions to every rule too. I am starting to see some of the Mt. ranchers using bigger and bigger guns due to the fact that their also running into more and more bears.
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Feb 8, 2008 12:22:43 GMT -5
The guys shooting the .270 are seldom afraid of their rifles, but give them a .338 or .340 and if their not shooters, the first thing you know they are jerking their heads up at the shot trying to stay away from the scope and missing the mark by a foot. You know, I find it facinating that I turn on the TV and see a couple 100 pound soaking wet women shooting 375s at buffalo and a 200 pound grown man can't shoot anything bigger than a 270. I think flinching is simply an excuse. Someone shoots a big gun once and then he makes absolutely no attempt to learn how to shoot it. It's easy to say - it kicks too hard.
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Post by klsm54 on Feb 8, 2008 12:43:50 GMT -5
Red, you've obviously never seen anyone with a severe flinching problem. Some might make excuses, of course that type will probably make lot's of excuses. But a flinch can be a real problem, and is with lots of shooters, many that have never even fired a magnum.
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