should you use your deer rifle on ELK?

[340wby]

Now right off I'd start by pointing out than almost any deer rifle will KILL ELK, those 257 roberts-270win and similar rifles in the hands of a good shot will kill elk without any question!
provided the bullet holds together long enought to reach and destroy the vitals

and your EXACT shot placement and YOUR recoil tollerance before it effects YOUR accuracy has a good deal to do with your results as does the design of the bullets youll use, the main problem I see is lack of deep penetration in some of the smaller calibers

I started hunting ELK with a 760 rem slide action in 30/06 on the advice of several very experianced ELK hunters, most of those guys had successfully hunted ELK for 20-30 years when I was allowed to go on the first hunt with them in the early 1970s (not one of which used anything BUT deer calibers)
most years there were 5-6 hunters in camp, and most years we as a camp got at least a few ELK between us.

I killed my first elk with a 30/06..using the 220 grain round nose ammo it was suggested I use and IT works, no question.(in that a single shot resulted in a dead ELK)
but on bullet impact the ELK spun and ran, bullet placement was EXACTLY where I was told to shoot, range was under 60 yards,...I was NOT impressed! my second ELK responded in a similar manor useing 180 grain bullets.. range was about 120 yards,(Id swapped as I was told I needed faster expansion to get qicker kills) I was NOT impressed!
neither ELK made 50 yards after bullet impact....while I continued to use the 30/06 I took a huge interest in elk being dressed out and looking at the results of the buillets damage internally, I took notes!
I soon swapped to a 444 marlin, then a 45/70, after watching the results those rifles in our ELK camp gave, then to a 340 weatherby, the weatherby 340 dropped ELK with authority, over the years , I watched and continued to take notes,the trend was that the larger calibers tended to get better results, it was not just the MAGNUMS higher velocity, that seemed to have little effect, it was good shot placement and larger bullets weights that punched all the way thru, that were the factors that seemed most important, we had more than our fair share of 7mm and 300 mags in camp in the 70s-80s,but the heavier calibers, the 45/70s, 358 win,35 whelens,338/06 and a 375 H&H were the rifles that seemed blessed with the ability to drop elk.
Don,t get me wrong, ALL those rifles in camp KILLED ELK!
but the pattern was clear, heavy bullets well placed tended to work better at DROPPING ELK than high velocity and light bullet weights, again ID point out
ALL those rifles in camp KILLED ELK!

but the most successful guys used 358 win and a 338/06, and a 375 H&H, all used 250grain-300 grain bullets at under 2600fps, notice that the 358 win is certainly not a super blaster, but its 250 grain bullet did the job, just like the other calibers 250-300 grain bullets did.

can you use a 257 roberts, a 270 win, to kill ELK? ? SURE! you can!

will it work as well as a 338 win, 375 H&H or a 358 win?
Id say no! simply looking at 35 plus years of dead ELK hanging in camp!

ID also point out that the PREMIUM bullets available today are a whole lot better than the bullets available when I started ELK hunting and the smaller calibers can do things with the premium bullets they could NEVER do 30 years ago!

[340wby]

" Can you tell me what is wrong with an elk only going 50 yds after being shot.. "

well in some cases not much... but in many that 30-50 yards before they fall always seems is down a steep incline that I need to now pack them UP! and thats not even counting the further 30 yards they slide down slope after they fall! and Id point out that in dence timber Ive seen some guys see an ELK spin and run and assume they missed.
now if you hunt rolling hill county or flatter areas I don,t suppose thers really much differance.
but on the steep slopes, in blow-downs and thick timber 50 yards or more can make a big differance in the difficulty getting at, what can easily be a 450-550 lb animal up and out of some canyon
yeah I vastly prefer dropping then where they stand,true it does not always work as planed but most ELK I hit with that 340 wby or a 35 whelen stagger around ,dazed, stuned and fall within a few yards of bullet inpact if they don,t fall like a demolished dynomited building (which many do!)
no you can,t make up for bad shot placement with a bigger cartridge, but you can sure see the differance between identical well placed hits from a 340 wby , 35 whelen or 375H&H over a 308 win,270 win or 257 wby , both prove fatal quickly, the differance is that the ELK seem to think that sprinting for the next drainage is optional with the smaller calibers, while staggering around drunkenly or falling seems like the main plan once you smack them with the heavy calibers
yeah their dead with either cartridge, I just don,t like watching them run first occasionally and do everything I can to prevent it. (it may be because I tend to hunt miles from roads and require several trips to BACK PACK OUT MOST ELK on my now 57 year old back! that extra 50 yards each way up and down steep slopes makes a differance...in fact I pass on shooting average ELK almost every year, simply because I look over the area and realize how difficult getting them out might be in some locations
when your young, you shoot then figure how too get them out, as you get older and smarter you think thru when and where and how youll drop those ELK, and whats required to get them back to camp

[340wby]

just to clarify, the backpacking ....I almost always hunt with three to six other guys in our ELK camp, we frequently hunt the drainages and canyons by placing guys at likely escape routes and then have a few guys still hunt the drainages and we ALL help pack out the boned out ELK once the ELKs down, no matter who shoots it, then place the meat into large coolers with dry ice packed into labeled gallon size ziploc freezer bags .untill all of us quit hunting,(usually due to the season ending)
the area Ive hunted most is very steep, and horses/mules would have difficulty getting in an out, plus access is ONLY from a few logging roads on the upper slopes, trucks/cars are restricted to within 30-50 feet of the roads, backpacking the meat out is about the only option, even hand pulled wheeled CARTS are forbiden
thats (the difficulty in getting ELK out) one of the reasons the areas not pressured much and the ELK tend to be down in there (the canyons lower slopes)as the upper slopes in the area have far more hunting pressure,simply because most guys won,t hunt more than a mile from a road :grin:

[klsm54]

The single BIGGEST advantage to using your deer rifle for Elk, at least in my eyes, is the amount of familiarity you have with the rifle. To me, if a guy has been shooting the same 270, 280, 30-06, 308, or similar caliber, rifle for 20 years, and is comfortable shooting that rifle, he will be better off with "Old Reliable" than he will with a spankin' new flinch inducing magnum. Of course I should qualify that response just a little further. He will be better off with his deer rifle as long as he knows, and accepts, the caliber he is usings limitations. Those include range and shot angle and placement.

Now if the hunter is one of the many who only use a rifle for a year or two until they MUST have the newest marketing gem from Winugeton, I would say they are better off with a brand new whiz bang magnum of 30 caliber or larger. Familiarity with a rifle is something these hunters have never experienced, so it is not a factor. They may as well choose their rifle by picking an "ideal" Elk caliber.

340, you talk about the success of those using heavy bullets in the <2600 fps range. I think there is truly something to that theory. In my experience, many bullets, especially those of good sectional density, seem to perform flawlessly in that 2400-2600 fps range. And also, just an opinion formed from experience, not based on the science of ballistics, it seems that that velocity has a somewhat mystical way of transferring energy into the animal....

I know, the right bullet, in the right place, at 3200 fps can kill like lightening. And a big chunk of lead lumbering along at 1800-2000 fps can act like a sledge hammer. But in my experience, relatively heavy (for caliber) bullets around 2600 fps perform exceptionally well under a variety of conditions. Maybe I've just been lucky...

[340wby]

yeah, Ive always found that bullets of about .260 or higher sectional density launched at 3000fps down to about 2400fps preform much more consistantly on game than the lighter weights pushed faster, and that your almost always better off adding bullet weight over velocity when making a choice as to the bullet to use on larger game like ELK.

matching the expansion charicteristics of a bullet to the intended target resistance is always going to be an in-exact science simply because shot angles, ranges, and ELK themselfs differ a great deal,
but I can tell you what Ive seen over the years amoung the guys I hunt with.
we have found no bullets below 30 cal that always tend to work correctly, now that in no way means they won,t kill ELK, because they do KILL ELK, they just don,t tend to DROP ELK as fast as the heavier calibers seem too. if your looking for the ideal caliber and weight range Id say the 250 grain SPEER bullets in 35 caliber seem to be an excellent match to the 358 win and 35 whelens
and the 225 and 250 HORNADY spire points in .338 caliber seem to match the 338-340 mag rifles.
the 30 caliber bullets in the 180-200 grain range but thats on the lighter edge of the ideal range
remember the charicteristics we look for are relieable expansion, accuracy and exit wounds, with dependable penertation from difficult angles and over a wide velocity range, keep in mind its nearly impossiable to design a small caliber bullet that has restrictions on jacket thickness and weight that does both, (1) holds together at close range hitting shoulder bones and still retains most of its weight and penetrates deeply and (2)opens consistantly at long range while only hitting the light resistance of the lungs
most of us practice a good deal more than average so bullet cost is a factor also, BTW,if we were not getting the performance from the standard bullets we would have swapped to the premiums
and before anyone gets thier shorts in a knot, most of the guys have hunted with the 7mm and 300 mags as well as the old standards like the 308 anf 30/06, they ALL KILL ELK just fine, they don,t tend to DROP ELK on IMPACT as REGULARLY thats all!
it takes BOTH exact shot placement and a reasonably heavy bullet in a reasonable caliber choice to get relieable results(dropping an ELK where it stands MOST of the TIME) almost any bullet properly placed KILLS,but I and most of the guys I hunt with don,t want the ELK to make it over about 10 yards from the point of bullet impact.

www.eabco.com/Reports/report03.html

www.steyrscout.org/extbal.htm

medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html

[bounce]

Well 340wby Have you ever seen a 38-55 shoot elk? Not that I'm planing on doing just that. I'm just wondering seems as though one maybe ok in the shorter ranges with the 255gr bullet?

[340wby]

"Have you ever seen a 38-55 shoot elk?"

NO! but Ive seen both a 35 remington and 44 mags used in lever carbines used,and both worked at under 100 yards, IDEAL? no! but they did work.....that 38-55 will get the job done if you keep the range short and YOU can shoot ACCURATELY

[Bill]

Bounce shoot accuratly NOT Why I once seen him shoot at a bowling pin with his 1800's single shot .22 and instead of hitting the pin in the top he hit it in the neck. Course maybe if he practiced a bit more with those iron sights he might be able to hit the top every time. ;D

[Purebred Redneck]

Ok scott - I'm going after you

I think "old reliable" may not be so familiar after you changed bullets. I think it's going to be very unfamiliar.

Take the 30-06
Lets say you use 150gr factory ammo on deer and you go antalope hunting - YES!!! familiar because you can use the same bullets.
Elk, moose, ect - very different feel. You're not going to use your 150's - you may not use 165. You will probably go with at least 180's. Now you have the same rifle - but different tragectory and recoil. This is essentially a different rifle with the same trigger pull and safety location.

I'd say you're better off with a new gun for the bigger game UNLESS it's a once in a lifetime type of hunt.

[bounce]

Bill, I'm all most shure it was 2 ponts for the top of the pin, 3 ponts for the neck, and 1 point for the body of the pin. ..smiles..

[Purebred Redneck]

The neck is the hardest to hit...

[klsm54]

Red, I feel that the BIGGEST advantage to familiarity is the "feel" of the gun. That identical stock, that identical safety and trigger pull. The "perfect" eye relief and scope picture. The way an old sneaker fits, or an old pair of hunting boots, that's how a good rifle should fit. At least a rifle that deserves being toted around for 15 or 20 years...

Trajectory? No difference. At least not a noticeable difference in field conditions at normal ranges. Hell most deer hunters don't even know what the word "trajectory" means.

Recoil difference? Some, but not noticeable when leveling on a big 6x6 bull. At least with the familiarity of using the same gun and scope combo you are used to, you won't get whacked in the eye with the scope. That is unless you are one who regularly has a third eyebrow because "Old Relible" never really fit you that well.... ;D ;D

[dan]

All i of got to say i hope someone's Misses doesn't read this thread because he is just lost an good excuse to get another gun. If

[jimiowa]

OK, this is a subject on which I`m ignorant.
Never Hunted Elk at all.
But does it make a difference as to whether your Meat Hunting or Trophy Hunting?
As I recall there can be close to 200 lbs weight difference between a cows weight and a Trophy bull.
I ask because my brother lives in Cedaredge Colorado, NE of Montrose surrounded by national Forests.
And I know he hunts with his wifes family near Montrose. His father-in-law a lifelong resident of Colorado, helped him find a Sporterized 03 in 06 and loads 165 grain bullets for it.

[Purebred Redneck]

Very true Jim

When I hunted up near iowa in a big club for whitetail and have seen some deer go over 300 pounds field dressed. The 10 or so people who were holding out for a big buck thought anything less than a 270 would not be enough. I tend to agree.

But if you want to shoot the first thing that came along, then anything 243 and up would be sufficent I guess.