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Post by klsm54 on Sept 21, 2006 22:46:26 GMT -5
 ..... I have to disagree, Red. I feel that any society that kills innocent people, because of race, religion, political or tribal affiliation, education, sex, or any other such reason is WRONG. I think that Nazi Germany was WRONG when it exterminated Jews and Christians in the 30's and 40's, I feel that Imperial Japan was WRONG when it committed similar atrocities , during the same years, against the Chinese. I think that certain acts perpetrated by both sides of our own nation during our Civil War were WRONG. And the list goes on throughout history. Alarmingly, it seems that most of today's genocides are taking place at the hands of Muslim extremist groups. And I see no way that any Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, or Scientologist, could possibly agree with these actions. Again, I feel they are dead WRONG. I am not exonerating Christianity or other religions for wrong doing throughout history, but I don't feel that todays generations should be held accountable for the mistakes of their forefathers. Especially when the atrocities committed by those previous generations, such as slavery in our own country, have been denounced by several generations, or more, since they were ceased. I will always believe, and I pray that a vast majority of the earths inhabitants will also always believe, that genocide and oppression are WRONG. God help this world if that ever ever ceases to be the common belief.
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Sept 22, 2006 0:01:44 GMT -5
See, the thing is you're acting on feelings. Feelings taught to you by your religion, culture, goverment, etc. Other people in the world don't have the same set of stepping stones which led you to your feelings. And you're right - jews, christians, buddists, etc aren't going to agree or understand genocide. But the same can't be said about historians, anthropologists, and sociologists. They can understand why things like genocide happen. They are taught to look at things objectivly with no bias. They can look and understand why the actions of Germany, japan, the middleeast, etc took place. Ultimatly, someone has to or had to be right about religion, morality, and ethics. When we die we might go to heaven for being a good person, might be re-encarnated to a lesser animal or greater human, those in the crusades might of went to heaven automaticaly b/c they killed muslims and jews, those in the islamic extremism might get a whole bunch of virgins in heaven for killing christians and jews. What if it really didn't matter if you kill people? In cultural study it is generally accepted that religion is a manmade phenominon aimed at safety and stabilization of people. It's kinda chaotic if everyone ran around killing people for fun --- so let's make up this person named god and convince people that you have to be good and not kill people or else god will be super pissed and send you to this place for eternity that really really sucks... Someone's got to be right and everyone else has to be wrong in the end. Let me ask this - what if the christians are wrong??? Just what if there is was no such person as Jesus. Just what if - because we really don't know...What if everyone's wrong??? We think people were nuts for worshipping multiple gods of fire, sun, and rain. What if the right religion hasn't even been "discovered" yet. What if there is no God or God-like creator? Bottom line is we really don't know how the world formed, if someone oversees us, if there is a force, and what is going to ultimatly happen to us all. Wow, this is really ******* deep. I'm going to try to go to bed and hope this don't keep me up all night  ;D |
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Post by xphunter on Sept 22, 2006 0:19:46 GMT -5
Red,
Your comments/questions are not unusual. Many in our world have questions like that if, dwelt upon, can be deeply disturbing.
Some take these thoughts and push them under the rug so to speak, while others start serious investigation.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 22, 2006 8:33:34 GMT -5
Red
I'm a Christian, If I'm wrong, big deal it won't really matter. If, I'm right...........
That said, I fail to understand your arguement about not understanding other societies and thier inate perceptions regarding things such as genocide, oppression and tyrranical rule by fear and bullying. Anyone with any modicum of decency, who having seen the happenings in these overtly muslim areas of the world who refuses to act does nothing more than condone these atrocities. Now, If we add in to that the statements made by these governments as well as the attacks on our own soil we have a responsibility to do everything in our power to remove these people from positions of power at any expense.
I really have a hard time understanding how on Dec. 7 1941 the Japs bombed hell outta Pearl harbour and that was considered a grievous act of war. The entire nation banded to gether and hunkered down go to war and see it through regardless of cost. On Sept 11 Muslim extremists (LOL) flew 2 jumbo jets into the world trade center killing thousands of civillians, (not even soldiers) and the liberals have already forgotten...................Not only that but they continue to manufacture assenine excuses for these killers. I DO NOT have to understand thier culture. I can make a rational decision free of my religious trappings regarding these dirtbags. I DO NOT have to understand that in thier culture it is acceptable to behead journalists in an overt attempt to get media coverage. I have formed my oppinion free of the teachings of religion, culture and government. I am intelligent enough to know wrong from right on my own accord. The only mistake we've made so far is that we stopped the air campaign while there were still people alive over there. It would have been considerably easier to secure the ground if there was nothing left breathing on the ground!
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Post by klsm54 on Sept 22, 2006 12:32:44 GMT -5
See, the thing is you're acting on feelings. Feelings taught to you by your religion, culture, government, etc. Other people in the world don't have the same set of stepping stones which led you to your feelings. True, but in any compassionate person those people without a set of guidelines, whether religious, cultural governmental, etc, are WRONG. Watch children of different races and religions playing together. They are color blind. They don't ask if another child is Christian or Muslim. They don't single out playmates by color. Racism and religious prejudice is not born in us, it is taught. And you're right - Jews, Christians, Buddhists, etc aren't going to agree or understand genocide. But the same can't be said about historians, anthropologists, and sociologists. They can understand why things like genocide happen. They are taught to look at things objectively with no bias. They can look and understand why the actions of Germany, japan, the middle-east, etc took place. Understanding those things, and condoning them are completely different. Those who condone genocide, oppression, torture, etc. are WRONG. One of the big problems in todays world is education. For 2/3's of the world, lack of good education is the problem. For a very small percentage, over education is the problem. Any historian, anthropologist, sociologist, or the likes, that condones these acts of violence, or tries to make excuses for their acceptance is obviously educated way beyond their natural intelligence level. Of course these overeducated idiots are WRONG.Ultimately, someone has to or had to be right about religion, morality, and ethics. Agreed. But my money is betting that it wasn't anybody such as Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, or Saddam Hussein that had it right.Someone's got to be right and everyone else has to be wrong in the end. Maybe. But what if, just maybe, there is one God that understands the way people think? What if that one God accepts all religions that worship him as long as they do it in a peaceful loving way? Maybe, just maybe, there is not just one religion that is the true religion. Maybe God accepts Jews and Christians in spite of their different beliefs. Let me ask this - what if the Christians are wrong??? Just what if there is was no such person as Jesus. Just what if - because we really don't know...What if everyone's wrong??? We think people were nuts for worshiping multiple gods of fire, sun, and rain. What if the right religion hasn't even been "discovered" yet. What if there is no God or God-like creator? In this respect, I agree with Donnie. I choose to follow Christian beliefs. If it is THE one true religion, or one of THE accepted religions, I've chosen correctly. If it's not, at least I will not lie on my deathbed with a guilty conscience because I lived a life that had no respect for other humans.Bottom line is we really don't know how the world formed, if someone oversees us, if there is a force, and what is going to ultimately happen to us all. Once again, I have to agree. But faith is believing in something that you cannot see, or something that can't be scientifically pr oven to you. I think this faith is what separates us from animals. When this faith becomes less than the norm in this world, it will begin a very dark time, whether a supreme being exists, or not.Yep Red, it is a very deep subject. But I fear that the debate is far from over. When a religion as big as the Muslim religion, preaches hatred and killing of all that don't agree with their beliefs, we are in for a very long fight. I am definitely bias in my opinion. I believe that Muslim extremists are WRONG. Hopefully the majority on this earth will always believe as I do. We, non Muslims, are in big trouble if that belief ever ceases. |
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Post by dakota on Sept 22, 2006 16:10:23 GMT -5
Many of the professors at the seminaries have previously been of other professions. I know of a seminary in Iowa that the president and the head theologian both have degrees in Physics. I personally have taken doctorate level physics courses, and physics blows my mind. The complexity of the universe is so far beyond the most intelligent human beings' understanding. And yet some by their kind of faith think that creation just happened. To me that kind of faith has the least basis for reality. To believe that one would have to be totally ignorant of of their surroundings. Having faith on zero basis?  There has been considerable independent research on the whether or not the things reported in the Bible are true or not. Considering only the written history and the ways of proving whether something happened or not, so far nothing in the Bible has been disproved. Many many things have been proved. The bible not only has a tremendous amount of things about faith but it also has a tremendous amount of information about history and when things happen. The Bible has been in agreement with other texts written at the same time.  I am not a person who believes that the Bible is inherently accurate on all things. I can show you verses that when taken out of context would seem to say exactly the opposite thing, so don't put me in a category unless you know me. It seems to me the main difference between Muslim faith and Christian faith is how we as human beings should act toward one another. As far as that goes, many of the Hindu faith believe that helping someone that is in a bad way may be fighting the will of God. (And I have talked with many people of the Hindu faith including Brahmans.) But I can think of no other major religion who believes that killing one another because of the other's belief is justified. - only Muslim Study Christianity and study Islam and see if you disagree. Although I am a Christian and am taught that eye for an eye is God's job not mine, I am also a human being and my temptation is to destroy those who will try to kill me or my loved ones. I am not sure I could have obediently gone to the gas chambers as the Jews did. I am not sure that my faith is that strong. But then the old testament is full of people in my category here and many seem to have been forgiven. |
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Post by Purebred Redneck on Sept 22, 2006 20:27:37 GMT -5
First thing's first - why did the country abandon the sept 11 events. I do speak for the opposing side mainly because I am part of it. Without getting deep into politics, I will briefly explain it. We still supported the invasion of Afganistan. The problem happened when the invasion of Iraq took place 1. It was clear in the election of 2000 that Iraq was targeted as an opportunity for personal revenge. 2. Someone (We're not sure who or why) got intellegence about current Iraq weapons wrong. 3. In the 80's the United States government allowed Sadam to get WMBs and the United States GAVE him WMBs. 4. The UN disaproved of US military action in Iraq. In a nutshell, we believe the actions taken against Iraq by the United States was unlawfull. It took a legitament thing like the war with Afganistan and totally went overboard. Secondly, I will give it one last shot of clearing all my culture statements. And this is not in particular addressing the genocide issue. And I'm sure I fall in the catagory of "overeducated" because I absolutly love sociology and anthropology. In herding societies, people live by raising livestock (certain African counties and middleeast countries for example). There is more of a political structure because people don't depend on eachother as much anymore. They claim land, form seperate families, etc. You can't solve disputes with war because you don't want to get hurt b/c you have work to do. This gives rise to government to solve disputes and to protect the people. People allow themselves to be ruled because it offers some sort of stability. Now, yes, the ruler has some "perks" but there is also legitimate rules of law. These perks are generally accepted because people on are earth to simply eat, sleep, reproduce, and die. That's it. There's no aspect of that we are here to experience all the wonders of the world and to be the most prestigouis person you can. Countries like Iraq under Sadam were under secular rule - religion played no part in the running of the government. Sadam protected the people from countries like Iran. But if you try to overthrow the stabil government, you're going to be in a heap of trouble. In Iraq's case, if an entire town uprises the ruler has no other choice but to punish the entire town. That's just to be expected in this type of society. Also to be expected is the punishment of death, that's just the way it is in that particular region - it's passed on centuries and centuries so it's nothing new and really shocking. When counties are under religouis rule, there is often radicalism because you have another excuse - God's cool with it. Other than calander year, there is absolutly no difference between the Catholic Church's State led Crusades and radical Islam. The Holy Roman Empire, France, England, etc wanted riches and for the Catholic Church's beliefs to dominate the known world. Radical Islam is the same - for Islam to dominate the world. As a matter of fact, it really doesn't want riches like the Chruch did. So could Radical Islam be more justifiable and religouisly "pure" (for lack of a better word) than the Crusades, a looting and pillaging quest. Here's the difference and here's why we care now. It's all about technology. Did Native Americans care what was going on in Europe during the Crusades? Hell no, they didn't know eachother existed... Did the world really care about the Haulocaust? No, not really. They didn't care one bit. Why, cause there was doubt that it was happening. It did not become real to us. Same thing with Sadam in the 80's. We really didn't care, we didn't have a real good way of knowing what exactly happened except the footage on tv. Today, we are much more sympathetic to victims of genocide because we have access to it. Cable TV, documentaries, books (b/c people can actually read now), the internet. We tend not to care about people we don't know. But when we see pictures and hear about events more and more, we begin to think we know these people. |
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bounce
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Post by bounce on Sept 22, 2006 22:19:35 GMT -5
I see that you Red have ben hiting the BEEFEATERS GIN
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Post by klsm54 on Sept 23, 2006 0:04:01 GMT -5
I don't think you fit into the "overeducated" category, Red. Most of those people have a minimum of masters degrees, and in more cases a doctorate, or even multiple doctorates, in some sort of humanity major. They just spent so many years in school, speculating and theorizing, that they have lost touch with reality. And I don't mean this as a slam to higher education, but there is a limit to how much education is actually useful, and how much is just a departure from reality. Anybody that has spent any time around an institute of higher learning knows what I am talking about. There seems to be an overabundance of these "overeducated" people that carry the title of "Professor" than any other moniker. Of course my opinion on our involvement in Iraq is 180 degrees from yours. But, I will admit to many inadequacies in how our government planned, and carried out, our actions there. As far as your assessment of world culture and different types of governments and rules, I feel you make some very valid points. But I think to dismiss the period of years between the Christian Crusades and Radical Islam of today as simply a factor of time is missing something. True, technology is a MAJOR factor. Our world has been shrinking, so to speak, very rapidly since the dawn of the jet-age and television, in the 1950's. But that shrinking has never been as rapid as it has in the last 20 years with satellite TV and the internet. But I think it foolish to not consider the evolution of mankind on earth since the days of the crusades. The crusades are proof that many religions and cultures have skeletons in their closets that they are not proud of, if not totally ashamed of those actions. But I think that mankind has become dramatically more civil, at least most religions and cultures, in the last 900 years or so. And technology HAS been a part of that civilizing action, for certain, but not the only factor. For the sake of all mankind we can only hope that the Muslim religion will experience the same soul searching and civilizing actions that Christianity, Catholicism in particular, did so many centuries ago. The worrisome thing is, that it took what? 400 or so years to evolve out of the crusades, and another 400 or so years for Christianity to really start to become civil toward Non-Christians. That is why I feel strongly that this war on terrorism, which is really nothing but a war of ideology between Muslims and Non-Muslims, will last way beyond our lives, and the lives of our children. Our biggest hope is that technology will help to pull our asses from the fire in less than 800 or 900 years. Hopefully the shrinking of our world will make this evolution possible in a much shorter time. But when you consider that significant Muslim Extremist activity has only been prevalent since the '80's, we are really still in the infancy of this problem...  |
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Gila
Grand Member
and a Vernier sight. It's marked up to twelve-hundred yards. This one shoots a mite further.
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Post by Gila on Sept 23, 2006 8:38:57 GMT -5
It's a different culture. Can't say it's right or wrong - it's just different. With all the different cultures, societies, nations throughout history everyone's on a different timeframe pace. The ancient Romans had technology comparible to the US in the 1800's. Tribes in the rainforest still have the same life they had 2000 years ago. And yes, the Crusades happened many hundreds of years ago...and a similar thing is happening now only with a different religion. I think it's bias to say that cultures are right or wrong. What is "wrong" to undustrialized nations might be "right" to 3rd world countries and other nations could care less. I don't think it's fair for one culture to judge the actions of another because they don't understand them. Trust me on this one.. These people thrive off of hate. They are dead wrong and any attempt to justify their behavior is out of the question. I live and work with these people every single day. They are mixed up so much on their religion that they continue to fight amongst themselves continuously. Yea, they are dead wrong. No doubt about it. No doubts and no excuses. Just plain screwed up and wrong. Oh, did I mention hateful and evil? |
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Post by dakota on Sept 23, 2006 11:08:18 GMT -5
Justifying the wrongs of today by comparing them to the wrongs of yesterday? I don't follow that form of logic. Plus, there is a major difference between the actions of governments and the teaching of religions. The USA is not made wholly of Christians. As much as I would like it to be this society is not "Christian" it is based upon the freedom of religion. In the past many attrosities were committed by what some would call "Christian" countries and everybody thought God was on their side. But those countries were not strictly following christian teachings. One should not confuse the country with a religion. Compare rather the teachings of Moslem and the teaching of Christianity. Love your neighbor, which category does that fall in? ?? Also I do not understand the logic behind discrediting people because they are educated. Where does that logic come in? Being educated to me means 1. being informed 2. better able to form decicions, judgements, thought process. What does being ignorant buy you? 1. unbased predjudices 2. decisions based upon bias not logic |
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Gila
Grand Member
and a Vernier sight. It's marked up to twelve-hundred yards. This one shoots a mite further.
Posts: 622
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Post by Gila on Sept 23, 2006 11:49:54 GMT -5
I think you fail to understand that their government and laws are completely based upon their religion. Their religion justifies murder and chaos. This is normal and understandable behavior to them. They do not love anyone, not even themselves. They refuse education because it goes against their beliefs. They still live as they did thousands of years ago and prefer to live that way. They don't want to become educated. They are taught to hate from the time they can walk.
Yes, "education is the answer to everything"! A quote by Charlton Heston.
The problem is they refuse education and hate anyone who is educated. There is a reason they are still savages. They have always refused to become educated since the beginning of time. These people are at a standstill in time. The more anyone tries to help them, the harder they seem to fight it.
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Post by dakota on Sept 23, 2006 12:38:52 GMT -5
I think you are right GM.
My argument is not against what you are saying.
The people there are ruled by their religious leaders. Many who are fanatics.
I think we have religious fanatics here in the USA. I am glad they are not in charge of our government.
The crusades were often wrong, IMO. But there was a reformation of the Chrisitan church since then.
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Post by dakota on Sept 23, 2006 12:52:44 GMT -5
When we invaded Iraq, I did not feel Democrat or Republican, liberal or conservative, I just felt sad.  I think there are a lot of similarities with the fighting in Iraq and the fighting in Vietnam. What is it going to gain? Is the war something that will benefit anyone? Who? I think the USA needs to protect ourselves, do not get me wrong. I do not know the evidence that brought our country into this war. If I am second guessing the decisions that were made well hind sight is better than fore sight. It appeared to me that the previous president --- the president between the bushes --- ignored the attacks on USA serviceman and our embassies. I did not agree with that position. The Israelis may have done it right when their athletes were attacked and killed at the Olympics. The people who did it just somehow stopped living, one by one. There was no major war. Wrestling with a pig in the mud is a problem. The pig might actually enjoy it. |
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bounce
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Post by bounce on Sept 23, 2006 13:49:42 GMT -5
We should use Red's Tatics at the pond, Just blast them till they sink.
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..... I have to disagree, Red. I feel that any society that kills innocent people, because of race, religion, political or tribal affiliation, education, sex, or any other such reason is WRONG.
