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Post by dovehunter on Jan 13, 2010 16:47:11 GMT -5
I finally got the .357 Mag. & .22 Hornet barrels for my NEF Handi-Rifle and have been trying out some loads. The Hornet shoots great with .45 gr. Beartooth bullets over 3 gr. of Unique. I experienced some problems with the .357 mag. barrel however. My usual .38 Spec. load of 158 gr. hard-cast SWC over 5 gr. of SR-4756 wouldn't shoot worth a hoot! It printed all over my big sighting in targets. This is the same load I shoot out of my .38/.357 handguns shooting off-hand at NRA 25-yd. slow fire pistol targets at 25 yds. and I can easily keep every shot in the black. Even with a 4x scope and a good rest, these same loads shot all over the place at 50 yds. I thought maybe the scope was off and tried some Fed. factory .357 Mag. 125-gr. jacketed hollow points. I got a five shot group I could cover with a quarter at 50-yds. I then figured maybe it was those SWC bullets as I tried another guys handloads using his own 130 gr. cast round nose flat point bullets and proceeded to get about a 2" group. I said I'll try one more thing which was to try another batch of my reloads which were essentially the same as the others except I used Unique powder. Low and behold I got about 1.5-2.0" 5-shot groups at 50 yds. which, after the earlier problems I had, I didn't think was too bad. Obviously now I'll now stick with Unique powder for any other .38 Spec. handloads I shoot in the Handi-Rifle. What has me bugged is the results using SR-4756 powder. Is there something about this powder that would make it shoot well out of 4-6" barrels at 25-yds. and all over the place out of a 22" rifle barrel at 50-yds?
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Post by jmarriott on Jan 13, 2010 19:00:01 GMT -5
I think you might need to slug the bore of the gun if you are shooting lead bullets.
I bet that bore is larger than you would think it is.
Normally if the gun shoots copper jacketed bullets well but lead cast slugs not to well it is a large bore. Marlin rifles (NEF ALSO) are a bit on the large size.
Are the cases really sooty? The loads seem rather mild, so it is not seating in the grooves till it is ever so slightly canted in the barrel. then grabs and spins erratically.
Until you can slug the bore you could up the powder charge a bit to expand the bullet quicker. I have seen the marlin 357 measure from .356 groove and .348 bore to 358 groove and 350 bore.
No forcing cone in the marlin rifles. Lots different than a revolver with the open jump gap.
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Post by twomoons on Jan 14, 2010 12:15:56 GMT -5
JM's right your bullets are off size.
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Post by dovehunter on Jan 14, 2010 16:05:51 GMT -5
jmarriott & Moons:
You guys forgot that I said as soon as switched to loads using UNIQUE powder (from SR-4756) that I started to get decent groups using those same bullets.
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Post by jmarriott on Jan 14, 2010 16:39:29 GMT -5
Do they have gas checks? If so then up the charge of powder to expand them. Did you notice soot on the sr-4756 rounds and not as much on the unigue powder. If so the unigue powder expanded the cases enough and they obtained high velocity thus expanded the lead into the grooves and imparted spin. WHere as the sr-4756 did not expand the case and had a lower velocity did not fill the lands and grooves with lead and some gas escaped around the bullet. Slower-burning powders don't always give the base of the bullet a hard enough kick to insure that it bumps up to full bore diameter. If it doesn't the price is a leaded bore. Burning speed of the powder, lubrication, and bullet hardness all have to be balanced for best results. I think I would still have to bore slugged if I was going to shoot lots of cast bullets.
Could also be that after running the harder copper bullets down the new tube it removed a small bur or something small obstruction out of the barrel. Untill you get about 300 rounds in them to me they seem to settle down and shoot well. Maybe shoot them again after you have shot the copper bullets as the post seem to indicate that you did not.
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Post by jmarriott on Jan 14, 2010 16:45:09 GMT -5
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Post by Jack on Jan 15, 2010 1:38:58 GMT -5
I think Jmarriott's hit it- the Unique is getting the bullet to 'slug up', the other powder isn't
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Post by twomoons on Jan 15, 2010 9:53:58 GMT -5
The problem may still be your bullets as Unique is a fast burning powder and will tend to slug up the bullets. You really need to slug the tube.
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Post by dovehunter on Mar 14, 2010 8:30:12 GMT -5
The problem may still be your bullets as Unique is a fast burning powder and will tend to slug up the bullets. You really need to slug the tube. Okay I guess I need to do that. Is there a better, less potentially damaging (to the barrel) way to do this other than driving a lead fishing sinker down the barrel? I am afraid of ruining the barrel. If I was to take the barrel to a good gunsmith to have this done how much would you think he should charge? Once I know the grove diameter should I choose a bullet sized to that diameter or go maybe 1-2 thousandths larger? I miked the 158 gr. LSWC bullets I have been using and they came out to exactly .357". The Hornady 125 gr. XTP HPs that have given pretty good so far accuracy miked .356".
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Post by Jack on Mar 14, 2010 9:38:45 GMT -5
Dovehunter, a lead fishing sinker will work fine. Get a length of 3/8 wooden dowel and use that to drive the sinker through the barrel- no chance of harming the barrel with a wooden dowel. Make sure to lubricate the lead slug, too. Usually you want to go 1-2 thousandths larger than the bore measures. BTW, most lead bullets sold for use in the 38/357 will measure .358 or ever .359, rather than the .357 your bullet is measuring.
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Post by dovehunter on Mar 16, 2010 16:06:02 GMT -5
Jack:
Uh I don't think a 3/8" dowel will do since it's .375" in diameter - maybe a 1/4" or 5/16". On another board I was advised to get no. 9 (as I recall) egg sinkers as being the closest to .38/.357 but just a little larger in diameter. Checking other boards everyone seems to go along with you on using cast bullets sized to .358 or .359. Beartooth and Moyers I know both provide bullets sized up to .359. I may just get 100 of each and see which (if either) does the best. My barrel still shoots relatively tight groups with my handloads using 125 gr. Hornady XTP hollow points in (believe it or not) .38 special cases. It actually does better with the .38 Special cases than .357 Mag. cases. - who would have thought that!
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Post by dovehunter on Mar 24, 2010 7:52:18 GMT -5
Okay I finally broke down and slugged my barrel. Incidentally, 1/4 oz. egg sinkers proved to be just about perfect - large enough to shave off a good bit of lead upon entering the barrel, but not too big to require undue effort to get all the way through. I made two slugs just in case one proved to be deformed. Both measured essentially .356" with my micrometer. The commercial 158 gr. LSWC bullets I had been using (which shot all over the place at 50-yds) miked out to .357". The Hornady 125 gr. XTP hollow point jacketed bullets (which yielded pretty tight groups) miked out to .356".
Based on this I had thought to order (no more than) 100 bullets each sized to .358" & .359", trying out both to see which works best. I would then probably get a larger quantity of whatever (if either) works best. Does this sound like a good game plan? If not, what do you (all) suggest?
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Post by dovehunter on Mar 26, 2010 12:01:01 GMT -5
Okay I finally broke down and slugged my barrel. Incidentally, 1/4 oz. egg sinkers proved to be just about perfect - large enough to shave off a good bit of lead upon entering the barrel, but not too big to require undue effort to get all the way through. I made two slugs just in case one proved to be deformed. Both measured essentially .356" with my micrometer. The commercial 158 gr. LSWC bullets I had been using (which shot all over the place at 50-yds) miked out to .357". The Hornady 125 gr. XTP hollow point jacketed bullets (which yielded pretty tight groups) miked out to .356". Based on this I had thought to order (no more than) 100 bullets each sized to .358" & .359", trying out both to see which works best. I would then probably get a larger quantity of whatever (if either) works best. Does this sound like a good game plan? If not, what do you (all) suggest? Come on guys (twomoons??), help me out here!
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Post by Jack on Mar 26, 2010 18:47:53 GMT -5
Your plan sounds logical to me, Dovehunter. But, Twomoons is much more expert with lead bullet loading than I am....
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Post by jmarriott on Mar 27, 2010 12:35:52 GMT -5
size your bullets .002" larger,
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