Post by Purebred Redneck on Apr 9, 2006 16:50:20 GMT -5
Ok, everyone complains more of the flyers of rimfires as opposed to centerfires.
What causes these flyers 1. the manufacturing process (shotty) 2. shotty materials that make the round (powder, bullet, primer) 3. physics (a light little round that is inferior to the other exact same rounds is more prone to resistance) 4. or is it just the fact that we shoot so darn many rounds at so small targets (shooting at a 2in circle as opposed to a 8x11in crosshair centerfire target). We mentally accept a 2in group in a 30-06 b/c we're shooting deer as opposed to a squirrel, rabbit, etc.
I don't know why I did it, I don't know why I enjoyed it, and I don't know why I'll do it again --- Bart Simpson
Hi Red, to explain your questions someone would need a lot of pages, lol. There are so many factors to cause fliers, as to my undertanding. It could be from your rifle, bolt, spring, barrel, scope, mounts etc etc. It could be from your rest & bag, bench technique, etc etc. It could be from the outter conditions that you didn't notice etc etc. It could be from your loads, bullets, how you set them together etc etc.
For sure is, you cannot notice "flier" if your rifle-scope-load combinations didn't shoot accurately. (say shoot for "a pattern"). You cannot say you have a "flier" if your rifle shoot more than 1 MOA or so, imo.
I think it is mostly the ammo and the consisity of the componits and loading, From the rim fire chemical to the powder and amount to the dia. of and type of bullet and Quality control of all in a mass production of the little rim fire shell, it realy probibly takes a very high standard of equipment + quality control to get decent performance in a massed produced .22 cartridge? They turn out billions of them and there is likely to be incosisitys freqently by machine & man and they want too do it as cheap as posible!!
Just some info from some tests I have seen run and 99% of the flyers on Rimfire rifles are from the ammo. Anything from Rim thickness to ecentricity of the alignment of the bullet. These two things can account for most all of the flyers you get. If the rim thickness is too thin or too thick it affects headspacing causing flyers. If the bullet isn't seated perfectly in the case then it also causes flyers. There are gauges that can measure both but they can be spendy as all get out. But if those two things are eliminated from the list of possibilitys then the rest is very simple.
Member of the Rancid Crabtree Fly-Fishing/Grousing and Filosofical Society
Those are all good answers and in truth all of the above is the corect answer. Rimfire loads can not be tailored to the rifle harmonics. And if you find a load that is, you still have to deal with the wind. Perfect 22 rimfire rounds are the Holy Grail over in the rimfire section at BRC. And if you are willing to buy $10 + ammo you can get close. That is the problem with rimfire, "You pay your money and accept what you get". Even the guys who buy the "Good Stuff" are plagued with an ocasional flyer.
On over the counter stuff, millions of rounds are sold to people who are satisfied with "minute of tomato can" performance, every year. So manufacturers are not going to invest the dollars into quality control for buck a box ammo.
I agree that all the causes listed can cause flyers. I definitely would not overlook bench technique. I can recall that when I graduated from the "rolled up sweatshirt over the car hood" rest, to a real front rest and rear bag, my 22's got more accurate Since 22rf's are a lot slower than a varmint rifle, for example, the 22rf bullet is in the barrel a bit longer, and follow thru becomes very important to shooting good groups.
As far as I can see the biggest cause is a loose nut on the trigger. When we shot serious target rifles with our picked ammo those were the only flyers. To determine if you have a flyer first you need to shoot 15 or 20 10 round groups from a solid bench rest with your best technique. This will establish your mean group for that ammo. Then anything outside that group may be a flyer, if you didn't clean your gun (this takes 50 rounds to erase) get oil on a bullet (including from your fingers) or you just loused up a pull. Modern 22 ammo is remarkably accurate on the whole. Winchester T 22's run 99 cents a box and from my target rifle will average under 1/2" groups at 50 yards. Now if 9 of those go in one hole and 1 goes out 1/2" on one group and the next one 7 out of ten and the next 8 out of ten, those outs are not flyers that is the best the ammo will do. If yo get into the habit of calling each and every shot it will surprise you how few flyers are actually ammo related. It's like shooting a flinter, if you dont see the muzzle flash and the sights come back down you may have a flyer.
Tempis volis coma frecia Mosca del fruta coma un bananna
Yes Sebastian, Deputy Don is right it`s a country thing. Probalbly everyone on this board has spent summer hours in their Teens plinking tin cans. If you could roll a tin can and hit it with most of a magazine full of rounds You had an accurate rifle and you were a fair shot.
Twenty two accuracy... I had some time tonight and the weather was perfect so I took my 22 rifle ( a heavy bbl target gun with a 3x Bushnell scope) to the range. I also took 3 boxes of ammo. One box was some 15 year old PMC ammo that had been given to me as the ammo sat in a basement in the damp for the last 15 years. The box was detreiorated and the ammo was green in sport. I took my hunting ammo which is Remington Hps, and a box of the ammo that shoots best in my gun. I also took my ammo tools, a dial indicator and a concentricity gauge and a rim gauge. I set up at 50 yards and posted targets. The PMC ammo shot a 25 shot 1 3/4" group center to center. twent of those shots went into 1.1 inch. Then I took the rest of the box and measured and chose the 5 best ctgs. They went into 1.225 with 4 in -.6 of an inch. Were 5 in the firs group flyers was one in the last group ? No I think if that ammo had been dead fresh it wouldn't have shot any better, those were the tolerances of the ammo. Now I took my hunting load and after firing 15 rounds to settle the gun to the ammo I fired a group. All shots went into .6 of an inch in a nice round group. This was with 1.19 a box hunting ammo. With the target ammo groups were from 3/8 inch to 1/2" and the larger groups were probably because I was running out of light and didn't fire in the gun. Superinmosed all groups went into under 2". From experience I can say that by measuring rims and indicating the bullets I can expect a 20% reduction in group sixe with target ammo and about 35% with hunting ammo. Now what does this mean to the average hunter? NOT DIDDLY SQUAT ! All the ammo went into 2" or less at 50 yards. All the ammo would have been capable of head shots on small game at average hunting distance, and with just average quality fresh ammo you could do head shots from 50 to 75 yards.
In every bench test I have done on ammo since 1969 (Remington 40X with Lyman targetspot)I have found that if you have a quality gun all american ammo is more accurate than is necessary for it's intended purpose. As a matter of fact when you can take a $60 dollar Marlin rifle with a cheap scope and glued on mounts and shoot under an inch at 25 yards you should have no kick if one round is 1/4" out of group. When you can take ammo selling for less than 2 dollars a box and shoot groups of less than 2" at 100 yards with a 22 rimfire you should jump for joy at the quality of modern American ammo.
In fact in serious testing (Martini small bore with Redfield Olympic sights) I feel that Eley's reputation is somewhat over blown. I have always found a brand of American ammo that would equall it's accuracy for 1/2 the money. Every time I build up a Ruger 10-22 target rifle I cut my own chamber and I test fire the gun with several brands of ammo to give the owner an idea of what shoots best. In most cases that ammo is not some pricy target stuff but just good off the shelf ammo.
As I write this I have in my hand a target sent to me by a happy camper. It has written on it 5 shots Federal lightnings 100 yards and they are all in 1". He noted he was anxious to try Targer ammo, guess what? the traget ammo wouldn't do any better and by gauging his rounds to this day that rifle will shoot federal lightnings into 1" ay 100 yards. My rifle HATES Federal ammo! But feed it W/W T22's and it is a happy camper. (All the testing was done on windless days as even a moderate breeze will open 22 groups up 2" at 100 yards, 22 love to drift in the wind. )
Sure it's nice to blame a miss on a FLYER, but truth be told with a quality gun and even moderate priced ammo the misses still come back to that loose nut on the trigger.
Tempis volis coma frecia Mosca del fruta coma un bananna
I will post this exprance hear though it was not rim-fire ammo, years ago I had a new Star .380 which the majority of hits at a 25yd bull would be inside 6or 7 inch dia. The every so offten flyer say about two in ten would be wayout like hit the ground 1/2 way to the target. Had a box of CCI that produced no flyers in that gun. Later I bought a Beretta .380 It shot all ammo in side 1-1/2 inches at 25 yds. morle of this is I think? a fine gun will elimanate most true flyers, poorer guns & ammo will find each others weekness over & over